Mets Chat Room: No excuses, just get it done.
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- July
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For a guy who says he doesn’t make excuses, Johan Santana sure does throw some things out there, like blaming the Piano Man for not getting his work in. Santana did not have a good start in Cincinnati and needs to give the Mets some length tonight.
David Wright said there’s still a sense of urgency going against the Phillies tonight. Just like there was the first time. The bottom line is if they get swept they pretty much give back most of the ground they gained. Nothing less than two of three.
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, July 22nd, 2008 at 6:17 pm by John Delcos.
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If they get swept? C'mon JD, getting swept is NOT a question.
Maybe it's part of being a Mets fan, but I am not confident tonight even with our ace.
Bob: Not a question, just a hypothetical. If the Mets can win three straight in Philly, isn't it possible for them to win three straight here? The point is they are in a good position so don't screw it up.-JD
Mets Fan: Isn't being a Mets fan all about expecting the worse and being surprised when it doesn't happen?-JD
Thats true, I hope I get surprised tonight. JD, what do you think of the Mets acquiring Street from the A's. Graziano reported the Mets were talking to the A's about Street.
The next 9 games will go a long way in telling us if this team has turned a corner or if its much of the same.
Everyone is of the opinion Omar will go out and get a corner outfielder. Who do you think they will get?
Not a great start for the ace. He is an ace, right?-JD
Our great 22 million dollar ace getting smacked around in the first inning, what else is new. Santana is going to be a major bust, there is no doubt in my mind. I've seen enough of this guy this year. The scary thing is he will only get worse, ouch.
JD, I've been down on this guy all year and it's amazing that met fans still come on this blog and defend this guy, what suckers.
yeah, so if he settles down and only gives up one more run or none through 7 that's not an ace… right?
JD,
" Not a question, just a hypothetical. If the Mets can win three straight in Philly, isn't it possible for them to win three straight here? The point is they are in a good position so don't screw it up."
come on JD, this is the Mets where talking about!!!
tomg: Yeah, you're right.-JD
Peter HotFoot July 22nd, 2008 at 7:24 pm
"yeah, so if he settles down and only gives up one more run or none through 7 that's not an ace… right?"
That is wishful thinking, if he did that I would be extremely surprised. I would believe more like 5 innings 4 runs and out of the game.
HotFoot:
Some thoughts on Santana:
-He's 8-7, but with an ERA that deserves better. OK, give him another three, four wins with decent run support. But, if you do that, then give him another two, three losses for games he kicked away the lead.
-Aces somehow find away to win close games. He has four losses in games in which he gave up four or fewer runs. You have to win some of those games if you're a real ace.-JD
John – Here's my response to a previous Met Fan Question – (I spent the weekend watching the British Open, yes there is golf without Tiger)
I’m going to be cautious and just say that I think both New York teams will continue into the post season. I don’t rely on stats (ugh) but on the players themselves and each NY team has some players who play their hearts out every game and are leaders on the team.
First of all, Derek Jeter and David Wright – are there two guys on any other teams that are so focused on the prize? I think not.
Mike Mussina and Andy Pettitte are proven winners on the mound, and have post season experience. The Mets, with the not-quite-as-advertised Santana and aging/ailing Pedro Martinez will not always get wins from them, but will get effort.
Both Joe Girardi and Jerry Manuel are ‘tournament tested’ themselves and know their roles very well. Joe has a bit of a catcher problem these days, and Jerry is still feeling his way, but as an aside, I hear you could probably sell tickets to the Manuel post game interviews.
So, let’s not get too dramatic here in the dog days of summer, but let’s be hopeful and suppportive of our teams.
It’s the Wright thing to do.
Why do I have this sick feeling in my stomach that Blanton is the guy who will go 8 innings tonight giving up less than 2 runs.
tom, If you didnt have that feeling Id be disappointed in you.
open mouth, insert foot.
DEL-GAD-IT
Delgado is the man. Mets up 3-1.
Is someone checking what Carlos Delgado is eating/drinking these days???? A month ago he couldn't do anything but complain, now he's a SuperStar????
Annie, I think the change in managers has something to do with it.
Ray, If that is true, then Delgado plays like a spoiled child, not a baseball professional.
On Santana:
Has he been as dominant as you may have wanted / expected probably not.
However, some of the comments on this site about him are absolutely ridiculous and just plain assanine.
Well tom, I'm just glad you are wrong about Santana and Blanton tonight.
OT – Howie telling some great Billy Joel/Pete Flynn stories.
Annie, Some bosses know how to push the right buttons. The whole team has looked brand new with the arrival of Jerry.
Couple of points
Santana – Pitching like an ace tonight – Gary Cohen
Delgado – Tyrranasaurus Rex – Keith Hernandez
This blog? They both suck.
Raul Castro!!! – Best hitting catcher we've had since Piazza.
7 innings 1 run in the game. The ace is back. Mets headed for first place.
Relax with the predictions CLM
Mets bench players are doing it again. Endy 3 for 4 tonight. Castro homer and even Marlon Anderson contributing.
I'm starting to get very very angry with our third base coach.
Yeah im with you BH that was just giving away an out. once endy hesitated you have to hold him.
BH: You beat me to it. That's two very bad calls. Both with Chavez and both for the first out in the inning. Those could be two very important runs.-JD
If you measure a team by its celebrities, the Mets have to get rid of Kevin James. Very annoying. Chris Rock isn't much better.-JD
I can forgive the first one, everyone is entitled to make mistakes…bugamt you can't blow it twice…in the same game!
Endy has to be the slowest "fast" runner I've ever seen.
Baseball Prospectus is free this week and they have a great column on Johan Santana: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7840
Everyone who has been questioning this guy the past few weeks need to relax. At least JD has an excuse… he has to sell papers.
I'm curious – how many over 100 pitch games has Santana had with the Mets?
Annie,
Tonight will be 11 and 3 at 100 Exact.
8th inning – 2 runs first place coming up. I want to be positive. I am tired of being cautious cause of last year. Time to get my heart back into it. I thought this team was the class of the east in the beginning and then started to worry.
I think they are again. Seems that Tomg had the pitchers backwards tonight.
Let's go Mets!!1
David –
Despite of some of the remarks on this blog, Santana has made a very good adjustment to the Big City in a short time. He knows how to pitch and also how to win – you really can't teach that and it must have been a big adjustment to come here and play in front of the 'NY fans.
Annie,
I agree ive been very supportive of Johan.
John,
Do you know if Billy threw at all or was it just determined beforehand to shut it down for the night ?
Joe Smith in for Sanchez. Obviously, we're not going to see Wagner tonight. I have feeling those two plays at the plate are going to come back and bite them in the butt.-JD
JD, no matter how this ends, please ask Jerry if he inherited Willie's selective memory. Our 'pen sucks against the Phils, Johan should have gone back out there, at least to start with. Decisions like this make me wonder why a monkey couldn't manage a MLB team.
...and as I type this the bags are now full. Absolutely pathetic. If you can't pitch in the big spots, then who cares about the rest of your performances. A loser always shows his spots.
Hmmmm, Those Outs at the plate by Endy looming large now. Phils have the tying run at first no outs. Santana cant get a break.
This is what pitch counts and over managing gets you… Santana breezed through the Phils best hitters (aside from a foul ball called a double) and we turn to an inexperienced closer instead of Johan with the bottom half coming up… stupid
Great job Sanchez….you just cannot rely on ANYONE in this pen. Geez
Shoulda stuck with Johan.
what a nightmare
Feliciano is prone to walks this is a mistake – he was very bad last outing ….. after all of this feel good game this is going so sour so fast
You have to be kidding me….these guys are just trying to give this game away
It's amazing how thick Reyes is. Fast, but not too quick.
JD: You still wanna blame some of these close losses on Santana? It's tough to win when your pen sucks and your infielders are dumb
Unreal.
First mistake by manuel was Feliciano he had no chance
Heads should roll over this.
Beyond belief….
well to all the ass clowns who enjoy bashing johan and billy hope you are enjoying this wow.
Ring Ring
"Hey Omar! Yes, it's Billy… I've been expecting your call. Yup, Street is still available… but he's going to cost you."
oops so much for positive
This is not even possible… its like a videogame that you switched the opposition from veteran to rookie in the ninth inning
I feel sorry for Santana – one more inning and he would have been a hero.
Yeah, I can't wait to here how Johan didn't pitch like an ace. Santana should have caught that ball over Endy's head.
I hope Johan blast the crap out of everyone after the game
Why are they bothering bringing in Heilman?
This pen is the biggest bunch of losers I have ever seen, they look defeated at the slightest bit of adversity, no heart or fight in them…people like that don't deserve a pat on the back much less million dollar contracts.
Can't wait to hear how the talk radio folks will find a way to blame this on Johan…he didn't, after all, get the Win—and we all know that that's what aces do…
When you give a good team five outs in an inning, you get what you deserve.
Well duh… if he hadn't given up the two runs… we would only be down by one now… come on…
Unreal! We need bullpen help. Why can't Santana finish a game? Sorry to say it but no reason Santana could not finish this game.
Loss is on Omar for hitring these minor leaguers to coach. That bum at 3rd base never belongs on a big league field. And maybe if Manuel wouldn't be in the umps' faces every inning we'd get a damn call, and maybe if all you lousy fans would lay off me i would have pitched tonight. And that wuss Santana can't pitch 9 innnings ever. what the hell is wrong with this so called ace.
You're right Santana should manage the goddamn team.
1-2-3 9th here
I admit I was wrong tonight on santana but like Flmetfan posted above, there is no reason why our ace couldn't have pitched the 9th inning. This game was vintage mets collapse from last year.
time for Lidge to blow his first save of the year. Hes due.
That decision to pull Santana is a classic Willie move. There was no reason to not let him go out there for that inning…ESPECIALLY when you CANNOT rely on ANYONE in that crap pen.
If I'm Santana I punch Reyes, Feliciano and Sanchez each in the face
overmatched
Id love to see delgaldo at least get a chance as the tying run
this loss is on Reyes, Chavez, and the pen….and especially a DUMB coaching staff
Here we go…Beltran is gonna go down looking
It will be interesting to see how the mets react to these really brutal loss. This kind of loss can make the team that won take off while the losing team spiral in to oblivion.
At least Beltran hussled there (sorry just spilled some sarcasm on the keyboard…)
Is it sept …. Im having flash backs and stop kicking my dog
What a motivational game….for the Phillies. Tomorrow is Maine who has had Jekyl and Hyde tendencies of late. What a demoralizing loss.
Did anyone notice when Victorino scored he looked at the mets dugout and clapped his hands. I hate that little punk, I really do. I wish someone would throw at his little coconut head.
I can visualize the Phillies sweeping the Mets and never looking back. The collapse continues, will it ever end.
Santana = ace.
Bullpen = crap.
Let's win these next two and restore some order.
Terrible loss. The FAN will be busy with callers tonight. Those two runners thrown out at the plate were the margin of loss. Bad as the players were, I gotta put this on the third base coach and Manuel for not letting Santana finish with only 100 pitches thrown. Is there a memo somewhere that no met pitcher shall ever finish what he started? Now the Phillies have new life when they were down. Better win tomorrow.
tomg:
Victorino is unbearable. I am stuck here in the Philly area and have to look at that jerk every game. Victorino is the most arrogant guy in baseball. He makes you wish a pitcher would just drill him in the knee.
This game was horrible. Santana had only thrown 105 pitches according to ESPN's website. Why is Agauyo coaching 3rd? Chavez was out by a mile each time. That is just horrible 3rd base coaching. I've said all season that the bullpen is putrid. Just because they've been decent lately doesn't mean squat. The Mets need bullpen help bad.
Plenty of blame to go around.
Mostly on BP for not being able to record an out before giving up 5 runs. Didn't I question Sanchez's stamina?
But some blame has to go on Santana and Manuel. He is the ace. He should have at least come out for the 9th. If he gives up a hit to the 1st batter, take him out. If he does not get in trouble, leave him in and have him finish the game.
As far as Endy getting thrown out. The first time took 2 perfect throws. The 2nd time, was the coaches fault. As soon as Endy hasitated to see if the ball was going to be caught, the coach should have left him at 3rd.
Almost as bad as losing is that Sanchez, Feliciano, Smith and Heilman all had to pitch in a game where maybe none of them had too.
Mets better get inn from Maine since thurs game is day game and pen could be out of gas by then.
An awful loss.
To continue on Santana. This may have been most important game of the yr.
Shouldn't he be out there? 105 pitches. Would Zambrano be out there? Halliday? Pettite? Webb? I can't see any of them not at least starting the 9th.
If a guy gets on base w/0 or 1 out you can take him out. If not, he should try to finish.
Victorino.
You guys would all love him if he was a Met. If mets had more guys like him, maybe they have the stones to win games like this instead of losing.
I can only hope that the Mets care as much about their collapse tonight as the people on here and the rest of the fans who spend their hard earned money on watching them. I still have an issue with the fact that they did not come out to see them after the last game of the year, which is a tradition at Shea. This team needs the killer instinct, and, the attitude that they can never score enough runs. Similarly, I would like to see the starters all want to pitch as long as possible and make the managers take them out.
Tonight was shades of 2007 Season's relief pitching all over again. The same relievers did the same things at times last year during the collapse. I am convinced that only personnel changes will help them from falling into the same ruts. The looked defeated when it was still 5-2 and the bases were loaded with no out. If a team does not have any faith in themselves, there is no way the fan's faith in them is going to matter.
Scoopcoop-
I could not agree more with both of your postings. From what I have seen of Santana so far, he is NOT an ace. Not a leader. Not worth the money he is being paid or anything close to it. I think he's a fine addition to the staff, but he is in no way what we were expecting, is he?
And to the guy who was so anxious to trade Billy Wagner: he's not looking quite so bad now is he? Say what you want about Wagner and his faults, but he doesn't run and hide or blame piano players for his problems! He is also a pretty decent guy with the media from what I can tell. 'Another thing Mr. Santana avoids…
Scoop-
If you were going to make some moves, who would it be?
I have been extremely disappointed with Feliciano for a long time now. I think a change of scenery would be good for him. I like Joe Smith. I don't know if I'd move Heilman. I'm a bit unsure of that one. I guess it would depend on whom we would receive for him.
To complain about Santana is just looking for something to complain about, and to be honest, stupid.
Johan Santana was not the problem tonight and he has not been the problem at any point this season.
The stats speak for themselves, he is top ten in almost every pitching category and his 8 wins is still near the top of the league despite almost no run support and an awful bullpen.
But I am sure you guys will come at me with some arbitrary criteria as to what defines an "Ace." Maybe you'll say something like: "an 'ACE' pitches well in big games against our biggest rivals." Thus, I submit the following: in 3 games against Philly Johan has thrown 23 innings, given up only 7 runs, and racked up 20 K's. He only has 1 win in those three games and 2 no decisions.
So to recap: his statline, while not quite "Pedro in 1999" level, still puts him near the top of the league in almost every pitching category. Further, he has pitched very well against our top competition, and one of the most dangerous offenses in baseball. Yet to some he is still not an "ACE." Well I say you need to find a more suitable scapegoat.
As horrible as tonight was, I thought the Mets would lose anyway due to Blanton's pitching, then take the next two. Two out of three would obviously look good now.
Even with Billy in the game, would the same thing not have happened? Well, I guess it wouldn't in NY, only in Philly.
Isn't there some way they can give Sanchez the loss instead? Smith really should have had an out there, meaning no baserunner from him. That really sucks.
It seemed like there were a lot of 0-2, 1-2 counts on the Philly batters in the 9th. Too bad our pitchers couldn't get their jobs done, aside from Smith.
Keith-
I don't think Santana is a "problem," as you put it. But clearly, he is not what the guy the Mets thought they were trading for while tying up so much money, and for such a long period of time. When one considers the number of home runs he surrenders and the loss of velocity on his fastball, you should be a bit nervous what his production will be like in 7 years? He should be in peak form now. Obviously is not. Surely you must be able to see that.
Here are a few stats on our "ace":
-Tied for #33 in the list of wins in the majors.
-#12 in strikeouts
-Tied for #12 in ERA
-In 11 starts he has had 5 or less strikeouts in a game. This from a guy who no longer faces a DH!
You were right about one thing. He doesn't compare to what Pedro was back in his heyday. I will of course route hard for him and hope he turns it on. I'm glad we have him. I just expected so much more.
My post on Santana is being somewhat misiterpreted.
In general I do not have a problem w/Santana. He has picthed well.
But if there was ever a game where you need him to go out and pitch the 9th, it was last nite given the importance of the game since it was against the Phils who you are tied w/, it was the first game of the series which could set the tone for the remaining games, you did not have your closer, you had (and I said this before yesterdays game) a guy who you have to still question his stamina who had just pitched 2 inn trying to close a game for the first time in 3 yrs, and your BP has been bad against the Phils.
If Santana is ever going to pitch more than 100 picthes, this was the game. If he gets in trouble by walking a guy or giving up a hit, then you take him out.
and no I don't trade guys based upon 1 performance.
Bad play by Reyes in the 9th not getting at least one out.
Bring back Nieto and make him third base coach.
The Blame Game from last night:
1. Manuel not bringing Santana out for the 9th
2. Duaner Sanchez for giving back all the confidence he probably had gained for himself this year. He imploded.
3. Luis Aguayo: Note to Luis…you aren't in the Phillies organization anymore.
One thing I have learned about watching baseball over these past 35 years is what I think Earl Weaver said…"Momentum is as good as your next day's starting pitcher." If the Mets can rack around Myers and Maine finally pitches like he should, the Mets will be tied for first again after tonight.
Paulunde: Good point about Feliciano. He has not been the same pitcher he has been the last two years. I think he has been a major disappointment this year.
Tom G: Of course you can visualize the Phills sweeping the series and never looking back…We're Met fans after all. :-)
Steve O
Only problem is that Mets have not done well from what I recall against Myers. Of course, they never had a run scored against Blanton either.
Why does Manuel(Or Randolph when he was manager) have Feliciano try to pitch any inning? Shouldn't Feliciano only be pitching to left-handed batters? Heilman has to go. When is the last time he was any good?
Scoop: He is 8 and 6 with a 5.18 ERA lifetime. Now i'm not sure where the ERA got inflated, it may have come from just a few bad outings. But anyway that is his overall record against them. It all comes down to Maine anyway. He needs a great outing tonight, not just because it's against the Phills (though that in and of itself is huge,) but mainly because he has not been the pitcher everyone in baseball thought he should be.
Jimmy : In case you haven't watched the past few years, Feliciano has been very good for the Mets. This year though, he has regressed.