Mets Chat Room: Santana tries again edition.
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- July
- 9
It’s been a long time since Johan Santana won a game, and most of that falls on the offense. Things have changed and if he pitches as he has the last six times out (that is if the rain doesn’t bag this) he could pitch the Mets within a half-game of first place.
They go for five straight tonight, but we know how things have been all year with this team. I have a sense something is different, but I’ve said that, too. What we do know is the season is far from over, and the team I picked to win the NL East has as good a shot as any.
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on Wednesday, July 9th, 2008 at 5:54 pm by John Delcos.
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When is the last time they won 5 in a row?
JD,
If you do not have an iPhone, I will tell you that weather.com shows rain over Shea, but once it clears there should not be too much trouble. The doppler shows only possible intermittant rain the rest of the way.
JohnM: April 15-19 of this year.-JD
Before the game the Mets put Tony Armas on the DL (abdominal strain) and recalled Carlos Muniz.-JD
Tiffany: Have been hit-and-miss on that. Today is Game #91.-JD
John – A few days ago I wrote and asked if you could post the starting lineups of both teams, not just the Mets. Perhaps you missed that post, so I’m asking again.
Thanks.
Is anyone else going out of their minds listening to Gary, Keith and Ron talk about starters innings?
What is their point? They are really stupid.
Does anyone really think that baseball teams are employing a losing strategy by taking their pitchers out before they get tired and hurt?
Yes, in the past teams recklessly overused their pitchers and ended many careers long before their time. We know.
ITS CALLED PROGRESS.
No Gary, what offenses are trying to do are to draw more walks so as to get more baserunners in the hope that those baserunners will come around to score. Its a good strategy. Like all strategies sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t but its not really so much about trying to get the starter out of the game as it is about drawing walks.
I think this guy gets it. Pitchers don’t pitch as deep into games because its too hard to do. The pitchers aren’t suddenly weak and easily tired. They have to pitch harder more often.
Blazing speed!!!
Pitcher must be getting tired. Castro baby!!! I do like the 3-run HR.
Taylor, I thought it was a fascinating and interesting discussion.
Did you see Sanatana’s reaction to that popup, which made it an official game? He was very happy lol.
Wasn’t Koufax washed up after like 5 good years?
Taylor
As BH stated the discussion on the evolution of pitching is interesting. The part when they were talking about what Reghetti said about coaching today’s pitchers.
Reghetti said he had to completely forget about the era he pitched in because pitching today is completely different.
Koufax was not washed up he quit because of a bad elbow.
No Tommy John surgery in 1966.
BH, I agree that its an interesting topic. What drives me nuts is the subtext of ‘back in my day pichers weren’t babied. We didn’t have this pitch count nonsense’. They’ve actually started to realize that there are good reasons why pitchers don’t pitch deep into games as much as they used to. This is progress in the thinking of Gary, Keith and Ron to match the progress in pitcher usage.
They still resist the obvious explanations. For one its good strategy to take out a pitcher if he is tired and not throwing as hard as he was. Especially if you have good relief pitchers to bring in. You will win more games AND prevent injuries to your starters if you don’t pitch them so deep into games.
Scott, my point exactly. If he hadn’t thrown so many innings he probably wouldn’t have needed to retire. That’s what I meant by washed up. He was unable to pitch anymore.
Taylor – I’m surprised at your remark about Sandy Koufax. What made you think he left because he was washed up?
I meant ‘washed up’ in that he was not able to pitch anymore because he was abused by pitching 300+ innings for several straight years.
That was a short rain delay. Is Johan really coming out?
More of the ‘back in my day’ stuff from Keith. Ahh but he wouldn’t be the same Keith without it.
Soriano is out of the all star game and I’m sure everyone will agree he should be replaced by reyes.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080709&content_id=3100983&vkey=allstar2008&fext=.jsp
Taylor – Did you ever see Koufax pitch?
Koufax was diagnosed with traumatic arthritis in 1964. He pitched two years after in great pain with his elbow swelling up after each start. Pitching 300” innings a year certainly accelerated the damage.
One of the highlights of my youth was when the Mets beat him in 1965 for the first time. The starter and winning was a rookie named Tug McGraw.
hey John could you find out if there was a more sinister reason Johan left the game, because 40 minutes really isn’t that long.
Ben: That will be one of the first questions of Manuel.-JD
Annie – Only on film. Why?
I saw Koufax pitch once. The Mets beat him 10-4. I think it was 1966. I sat in the upper deck in left, near where Tommie Agee hit his home run. I had a chance to meet Koufax in spring training. I told him my dad said I had to see you pitch. When I told him about the game he said he remembered.-JD
Cool story. Arthritis is an auto-immune disorder so who knows what the innings meant. But if it was concentrated in his pitching elbow maybe it was the innings. ????
Taylor –
Because I agree with Ron, Gary and Keith that baseball has seen better days than now.
It has become nothing but a ‘brand’ and a business. All the joy and skill in playing the game is gone and everything is measured by the bottom line.
If you never saw Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Spahn, Marichal, Carlson, Ford, etc. etc. you’ve missed seeing a real pitcher.
As Keith would say, that’s just the way it is.
When did you start following the game?
Nice night for Delgado. I am hoping that the Mets plate him from second for a little insurance.
Sandy Koufax was an absolute warrior in the last years of his career. To this day, he can’t straighten his left arm because of the trauma he put it through. “Koufax” and “washed up” should never appear in the same sentence.
Good hit for A. Reyes. Nice to see a rookie making the most of his time in the majors. I really like his hustle.
John – I met Koufax once myself when I walked 18 holes of the Greater Hartford Open with him during the Pro
Am at the Wethersfield CC. He played left handed, not too well, but was a real charmer and I enjoyed meeting him very much. We didn’t talk pitching, we talked golf.
John how is Chris Russo doing up there?
I’m too young to have seen the likes of Koufax and his contemporaries but I think that Pedro Martinez was the most dominant pitcher ever. When he was in his prime albeit a kinda short prime no one was ever as good as he was. He posted a .7 whip in 2000 smak dab in the middle of the steroid era and in fenway park…thats disgustingly amazing.
In case you were wondering, if this stands it will be the first times since Sept. 6-7, 2006, that the Mets had back-to-back shutouts.-JD
I’ve followed the game since I was old enough to. I was born in 1971. My dad started taking me to Met and Yankee games when I was very young. I don’t really remember exactly when. Of course when I was that young I didn’t know anything except for who the star players were. Probably 1977 or somewhere in there. I really started following closely in the 80’s when I was old enough to read The Sporting News.
Anyway I don’t buy it. There was an article on Life magazine in the 50s written by Ty Cobb. It was the same thing. All about how the game has changed and its not as good and the players aren’t as tough etc…. The retired ballplayers have been saying that since there were retired ballplayers to say it. There’s not an ounce of evidence for it and plenty against it.
In track and field and other sports where the players play agains the clock or the tape measure in addition to each other progress has been consistent and unabating. The same it true in baseball, with or without steroids.
Howie has put this game “in the books” and it was a good one. Very few Giants were seen on the basepaths. Don’t forget, tomorrow is a day game.
Great game all around for the Mets. Santana getting a short night and a victory makes it even sweeter. It is also really nice to see the team more animated. I know, winning will do that for you.
Annie
Pedro in his prime was as good as anyone.
Also Doc till he wrecked his career was also that good.
I remember sitting in the Mezzanine in 85 and watching his curveball break. It was amazing even that high up.
How could you leave Seaver off the list.
Also the game has always been about money.
If Comisky had paid his players they would not have been tempted to throw the WS
Nice ballgame.
Also Randy Johson, Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux are up there but I agree, Pedro Martinez’ peak was the best of all-time. Don’t forget that Koufax put up his numbers in a pitcher’s park in a pitcher’s era. Pedro didn’t.
Let’s also not forget Bob Gibson. A 1.12 ERA for an entire year of over 200 innings pitched is surreal and has not been eqaulled since. Tom “The Franchise” Seaver I agree should also be named. My favorite memories were the Seaver Gibson head to head games.
Are you all sitting down? Moises Alou left his rehab game tonight with cramping in his left hamstring. He’ll get a MRI tomorrow in NY. You really can’t make this stuff up.-JD
Gibson had that great year in 68. In 69 they lowered the mound.
The thing I always found hard to believe is in 71
which could be called Seavers best year (unless you think 69 was better ) he had a 1.76 era and set the NL record at that time with 289 K’s for a RH pitcher but he did not win the CY Young.
On Alou I think it time to turn the page. Better yet just rip the damm page out of the book.
Is Alou’s middle name Pavano?
No, Pavano’s middle name is Alou.
You don’t have to make it up. Alou’s daily happenings read like a script. Unfortunately, Omar was too lazy to ever read it.
Why do we need Alou when our young players like Easley and Tatis are doing so well?
Mets beat Koufax 10-4 on August 30, 1966. Knocked him out in the third inning. Bob Friend, only man to lose 200+ games without winning 200, won the game with 7.2 innings in relief of Tug McGraw. Friend himself had been a Mets terror beating them 12 times before losing to the at Forbes Field in 1964. Wikipedia doesn’t mention it but didn’t Friend play a role in getting Marvin Miller as head of the player’s association? The starting center fielder was Billy Murphy (Cleon Jones in right, Swoboda in left). I had forgotten he even existed. 50,840 at Shea in the first year the Mets didn’t finish last.
JD: Regarding Alou, what I’m trying to figure out is why you think anyone would be remotely surprised or shocked by the news.
That said, love the blog. Long time reader, first time poster here. Any plans on a post relating to the long awaited emergence of Mike Pelfrey? There are quite a few people (on quite a few blogs) who have a lot of backtracking to do regarding Big Pelf.
I agree with your earlier post that the Mets front office should look to pick up an outfielder given the uncertainty regarding Church. However, I’m strangely comforted when I recall that the 2000 World Series team featured an outfield of Agbayani, Payton, and Timo Perez.
Hell yeah on Pelfrey.
There’s nothing like a good young player finally Turning The Corner to spark a team… even if it took, like, two years for the team to get so depleted that they just let the young guy play without Proven Veterans™ breathing down his back.
Pity they discarded all the other young guys for the next coupla years, of course.
I posted the same on pelf yesterday, not for nothing his first year was terrible. Only teams that expect to lose want their young players to learn to play for a few years before they get it.
No one was breathing down his back unless you consider Sosa a Proven Veteran™. He sucked. Right now he is one of the better pitchers on the team. Yesterday both he and his manager said it had to do with trusting his stuff and believing which starts from winning.
I cannot think of one poster who wanted Pelf out there every 5th day after he lost 8 games.
The season is longer now than it was “back in the day” and without ANY doubt the competition is much tougher now than its ever been in the past.
From all the various countries producing ball players to how competitive college and the minors are, its deffintly tougher than ever to be a major league baseball player.
Its just the way it is, like someone said above, its progression. I mean, Kieth Hernandez used to smoke… in the dugout! Try finding a ball player do that now, or eating anything even remotely un-healthy.
I mean there HAS to be a reason whether he was productive or not, Julio Franco was able to play through the daily grind of major league baseball at the age of 48!
I notice nobody has yet made a connection with Pelfrys emergence coinciding with the change in pitching coaches. Perez seems like he too has new life. Bullpen has been much more dependable too. can this be a coincidence? Only time will tell.
I am loving the way this team is playing ball right now. Church and Alou or not, this team is playing with a passion not seen since the first half of 06. Even Delgado has come to life. Is this because of the Managerial change? Time will tell about that too, but so far I like what I am seeing with Jerry Manuel. LGM!!!
Isn’t it interesting how everyone talks about the 2000 World Series team having an outfield of Agbayani, Payton and Bell? They forget Derek Bell was the right fielder most of the year (he was a forgettable player) until being injured in the NLDS. That team also had Piazza catching, Ventura was pretty good at third and at the time Alfonso at second looked like the best player in New York. Is he still with Bud Harrelson’s team in Long Island?
But you can with with some holes, creative lineup use, luck and some good pitching. Pelfrey’s emergence has been the key. Manuel has been good and just having the managerial situation resolved helps.
Dan—That 2000 team was built backwards: They relied on power from the infield and emphasized relief pitching over starters. Yeah, they lacked a bona fide slugger in the outfield, but they were world beaters at second and behind the plate. And their bullpen was deep with reliable arms (Cook, Wendell, White, Franco, Benitez) to offset a rotation that was underwhelming. It was a very untraditional team in those respects.
If ever a team had a chance at a sweep it would be Today. If the Mets get out to an early lead I would not be surprised to see the Giants first pitch swinging to get out of here ASAP.
Anybody know why Cleveland gave up on this Reyes kid? His MiL #s are not that bad.
Ray,
The BP more consistent? Let’s not forget that the BP blew several games and almost blew several others against the Cards and Phils.
Pelfrey’s surge happened before Warthen got here. It was more mental for Pelf. Whether Peterson had some effect or not who knows.
OPs “consistency” did emerge when Warthen got here. He altered OPs delivery a little by making him kind of stop at a couple of points to get him to delivery the ball at the same release point and to put more of his whole body behind the pitch (if you noticed his velocity is up). Whether it continues we will see against the Rockies.
In any event, I think Warthen’s less complicated methods and his approach of letting the picthers throw pitches that fit their abilities may help.
The less complicating methods will probably help OP the most.
To continue I heard Warthen speak about how the Mets SP is a fly ball staff (expect Pelf) and with a big stadium and a GG CF they should throw more picthes up in the zone to get fly balls early in counts (decreasing their pitch counts and thereby letting them get deeper in games).
Peterson was dead set against this. For a guy like Maine especially, this might be part of why he struggles to get deep in games. He ought to throw more picthes up in the strike zone. His FB moves better when it is up not down. Let’s see today if this is part of the strategy.
can u believe Alou…...this guy just cant stay healthy…well he is what 42 years old?....why is omar still relying on him…..man what would this lineup look like with holliday…..anyways 5 sins in a row…..we havent done that in a while hopefully castillo never comes back and breaks this run. SWEEP TODAY>>LETS GO METS!!!
Can we just call him now…Moises Alou”ser?” :-) time to quit if this is a really serious hammy injury.