About Last Night
-
- June
- 11
-John Maine needs to give the Mets more than five innings. He’s averaging 20 pitches an inning, which is too high.
-Nice job by the bullpen.
-It is clear Duaner Sanchez is not back.
-Wasted opportunities.
-Is Moises Alou really ready to return?
-They get swept by the Padres. Build a lead, then give it up. Where’s the killer instinct? Oh yeah, they don’t have it.
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on Wednesday, June 11th, 2008 at 11:54 am by John Delcos.
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New between innings song for the Met’s – “We gotta get out of this place!” They seem to be way too complacent about losing, and, Willie seems to totally lack consistency. I heard that he made mention over the weekend that he was not totally married to managing pitchers by pitch count, yet, he takes out Maine with 100 pitches after 5 innings and with Maine due to lead off in the bottom of the sixth. Then he leaves Vargas out there until they tie it up, goes and gets Feliciano after he gets two outs, and, then leaves Sanchez out there when it was obvious he was throwing batting practice. And what we Show and Wagner doing handling the tarp with the grounds crew???? They aren’t fragile enough that they can’t risk inhjury by holding down a tarp in a wind storm. The nuts are truly running the asylum here!
I still think this debacle is Omar’s fault. He left the mets with a barren farm system and old aging players in key spots. Having said that, the gm never goes first. The manager goes first. If Omar is going to fire Willie than Peterson must go also with the rest of the coaching staff. The problem is who do you bring in as manager because there isn’t anyone available that’s worth bringing in. The Mets are Stuck between a rock and a hard place. I just hope Omar doesn’t do anything desperate and makes a foolish trade to weaken an already farm system.
I thought it was cool that Show and Wags were out there helping with the tarp. I don’t think it was risking an injury.
Sanchez only throws 91mph. Velocity matters. He’s still good because he has outstanding control and a good change-up but he’s no where near as good as he was when he threw 96.
Stillsane,
I thought the same thing about show and Wagner when they were helping the grounds crew. The first thing I thought was that Wagner was going to hurt his back when I saw him pulling the tarp.
Well that pretty much sums it up, I couldn’t have said it any better myself. I think the only thing I would have added was Delgado’s weak attempt at snagging that ground ball after Vargas came in for Maine, just horrible defense, but I guess we’re used to that.
Also thank you for telling it like it truely is, especially with the whole Ryan Church situation, keep up the good work John.
“I still think this debacle is Omar’s fault. He left the mets with a barren farm system and old aging players in key spots”
I agree with you to a certain extent, Minaya deserves some blame, but don’t forget one of the reasons our farm system is so barren is because we traded half of it to Minnesota for Johan Santana. You are right on about Omar relying on too many aging players in key spots, mainly Alou, Duque, Pedro and Castillo. Remember without players like Carlos Gomez and Deolis Guerra, who were both international signings by Minaya, we would never have gotten Santana.
JD Said,
“They get swept by the Padres. Build a lead, then give it up. Where’s the killer instinct? Oh yeah, they don’t have it.”
To me, that is the personality and make up of the players that are on this team, especially the veterans, excluding Wright and Reyes. Those two are the only bright spots going forward.
Gregorio,
I understand what you are saying but don’t you think if the yankees or Redsox really wanted santana they would have made the trade. What I am saying is the Mets were really the only team interested. After seeing Santana pitch he is not worth mortgaging the farm system and paying him 137 mil. That is why the Redsox and yankees didn’t go after him. To me the mets were not a Ace away from going to the world series. We met fans saw that last year when they collapsed. Bringing in an ace wasn’t going to fix that problem.
Even if the Mets had won a couple more of Santana’s starts they would still be a .500 team. One player can’t turn a team around. A great player is worth only 3 or 4 more wins than a good player.
Taylor,
That’s my point. The Mets had bigger issues in the off season than to spend all of there resources on a pitcher who is an ace and you are seeing it now.
Does anyone else get the feeling that Heilman is on his way elsewhere in the short term? The opportunities where he is used are purely situational now (one or two batters), making it look like they are seriously show casing him and not allowing him to get in a situation where he can give up any runs. His performance this year has earned him one of the bottom rungs on the depth chart, and, yet I see as almost being phased out, which would lessen the impact if he was dealt.
You know John…if your sarcasm comes across in questions to the Mets like it does here, I’m not so sure you’re going to be getting ANYTHING from these guys…just copying what other answers are.
I’m not saying the team doesn’t deserve criticism, but you’re a beat reporter, not a columnist.
“To me the mets were not a Ace away from going to the world series. We met fans saw that last year when they collapsed. Bringing in an ace wasn’t going to fix that problem”
Tomg that’s a great point, unfortunately stupid people like me and I’m sure a lot of other Mets fans we’re blinded by the Santana trade and honestly thought this team was better then it actually is. The more and more I watch them and other teams it’s becoming painfully clear this team is no better then a .500 or below club.
Stillsane,
I have read about trade rumors lately and Heilman’s name has been coming up. It wouldn’t surprise me that he is traded in a package deal.
Tiffany,
to answer your question about the mets first 145 games last year. The Mets got off to a fast start and built a 15 to 20 games over .500 record. After the all star break the mets were a .500 team and than just couldn’t win a game the last half of september. There are allot of variables why they did well the first half. Maybe the teams they beat last year early were not playing well and in the second half players like El Duke, Alou, Delgado, wagner were showing signs of aging and the rest of the players were pressing to make up the difference. All I know is this team looks like the team in the second half of last year.
Thanks Tomg. It also would almost make sense if something was going on with Castro or Schneider as a reason why they brought up a third catcher for a while. They would have at least gotten to see how Casanova and Cancel (although his coming up was due to Casanova’s father’s death) handled the pitchers and also how they fared against major league pitching. Castro’s bat off of the bench never justified the bringing up of another catcher over an outfielder or infielder.
I haven’t seen or heard anything about the catchers being traded. If I was a gm and this team was still playing like it is now and basically since last year. I would be a seller not a buyer. The only players on the mets that would be untouchable are Santana, Maine, pelfrey, smith, sanchez, wright, reyes, church, beltran, schnieder . I would look into dangling the rest of the players to other organization to see if you could bait them in to giving up prospects or major league talent that could fill holes where needed on the mets or both. If you are a shrewd GM and wait until the trading deadline there could be teams desperate enough that are close to making the playoffs that would take a chance.
on Heilman…If they trade him now do you really think they will get anything worthwhile?
on Omar….his trades have been good mostly. You could argue about Bell, Lindstrom, Jacobs, Bannister but they all have either holes in their games (Jacobs can’t field) or have come backdown to earth (Lindstrom, Bannister) or developed something they did not have here (slider-Bell).
But your farm should have more than a couple of guys so that if you do trade some of them you still have others to build with…and in the era of revenue sharing where small market teams can afford to sign 0-3 players to multi-yr deals you better have a way to get younger…...and Omar has not proven he knows how to draft and develop players from within…..
The guys above are also a testament to the fact that the talent level of Mets farm guys is not up to other teams levels.
What I’m getting at, Tom, is that last year’s team should have won at least 90 games and the division. But they didn’t. And, in my opinion, it was an intangible/mental issue, rather than a personnel one.
This year’s team is arguably better—but playing worse. This leads me to believe that the intangible/mental issue is what’s at play here.
And, if it’s an intangible/mental issue, that blame rests more clearly with the manager than the GM.
“And what we Show and Wagner doing handling the tarp with the grounds crew???? They aren’t fragile enough that they can’t risk inhjury by holding down a tarp in a wind storm”
funny but when the Phillies did it last year everyone said it was so great and showed what a wonderful team they were. So many hypocrites
Franco,
I do not even remember the Phillies doing it last year. If they did, I think that it is short sighted of their players to do that and risk injuries. I stand by the statement I made that was quoted above. Moreover, my concern is the Mets. If the Phillies condone them doing it, that is their perrogative.
Tiffany makes a good point. Like I said in my LOOOOONG post, the major reason for their struggles right now is a lack of performance.
People point to the collapse and the convenient “over the last 162 games, the team is below .500”
Simple fact is, the team was 21 game over .500 before completely falling apart. Even if the Mets had a losing record those final 17 games (say, 7-10), they still would have won 90 games.
There needs to be a shakeup, and I think it needs to come from within the clubhouse, not the manager’s office. Releasing someone of stature (Delgado, someone else) might send a bit of shock to their systems.
Did you see Lastings last night? Game-winning bomb baby!!
Sorry man, just growing greatly frustrated
Mike and Tiffany,
I agree that something has to change. The mets definitely need a shake up. Whether it be the manager or coaching staff or the players themselves because if nothing is addressed here this will only get worse and than it could get ugly.
Well we know for sure that Tomg wants Petersen gone, lol, I agree. I think we all know something big is coming down the pipe soon, whether it be a big trade,a mass firing or a” give-up on the season” sell-off and/or call-up. I said it yesterday, CHANGE IS NEEDED!!! This team is disgusting to watch. -
J.S.-I remember an interview with Mike Bossy of the Islanders that was on TV a month or so ago. It was that Fran Healy hosted show. Bossy was talking about how the Islanders had done well in the regular season but had had some disappointing playoff performances. He said that they were fairly satisfied with themselves having had some success. But the Islanders brass was not satisfied. He said that the thing that really got everyone’s attention was when a very popular player, Gary Howatt, was traded for Butch Goring. He said players started thinking to themselves that if Howatt could be traded they could be traded. He said that it was a big factor in pushing them to the next level which as you all know was 4 straight Stanley Cup championships. So yeah that might work. It has to be a player that will make the other players worry if they are next.
Believe it or not but Mike and the mad dog today on there show was saying the same thing and the player they mentioned was Jose Reyes. I don’t see Omar doing that but that was there point also.
Taylor, Like who?
At this point we need anyone who’s worth a dam to stay with the team. I’d say trade Delgado( whos worth nothing) but thats not gonna happen( final year of his contract, too expensive and he sucks), and even if it did, it wouldn’t accomplish anything. We cant trade reyes,wright,santana or wangner, that would be dumb and would completely bury this organization, so who else do you suggest?
Change is definitely coming, and while firing Randolph is most likely the obvious choice, I don’t think it’s fair.
What will NOT make a difference is what happened last year, ie-firing a coach. Getting rid of Peterson or HoJo (who, as much as I love, doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on considering the way this team is hitting overall, but particularly situationally) isn’t going to “shock” the Mets system.
Firing a manager CAN do that, but I don’t think Randolph deserves that. As I said in another post, the more this season has gone on and the club’s flaws have been exposed, it’s obvious that the structure of the club is more to blame than the on-field managing.
If you want to make a change that could have a serious impact on the team, you need to trade or flat-out release a player from the roster…and I’m not talking about Endy Chavez or someone like that.
These players, aside from a few, need to realize that they are guaranteed NOTHING and that the first 63 games have been completely unacceptable and if they don’t turn things around, they could be next.
And to expand on that point, Why would being traded be considered a punishment, this team sucks, the clubhouse sucks their is no chemistry and the way it looks ,no chance at making the postseason, why would a player be ” upset” and consider that punishment if he was traded away from such misery.-
JS-Franco
No problem. I think that is the one thing that everybody can agree upon. Frustration.
JOHN, the idea is not to weaken the team. You could trade Reyes for Rafael Furcal perhaps. He’s due back from the DL soon and he’s not a downgrade from Reyes. I’m not saying trade Reyes. I’m just saying it could be anyone. Beltran doesn’t have that many years left and he’s beginning his decline phase. Of course you have to get someone in return who can help the team win now. I don’t want to trade either guy, I like them both, but that’s the idea. When the Islanders traded Howatt, they got Goring. Goring replaced the lost production of Howatt (and then some it turned out but that’s beside the point).
Taylor,
don’t take this personal but i you on drugs, Rafael Furcal for Jose Reyes. I’m glad your not the Mets GM. That’s not the player you would get back for Reyes.
Taylor, I understand your point, I’m just saying, why would that shake-up this bunch of lethargic players, what would be the motivating factor to make them play better, if they saw Beltran or Reyes get traded I doubt it would do anything to change the players effort on the field. ( at least not in a positive way )
I understand your point Tiffany about theoretically being better but I think it is flawed for these reasons:
1. 1B is continuing its decline. Omar failed to recognize that 35 is once agin old in baseball.
2. 2B is in decline. Omar failed to realize that coming off of surgery to your knees and not being ready for Spring Training does indeed impact your player.
3. CF: See 2B. Beltran’s major drop off in power is more than no protection. He hadn’t fully recovered from his surgery in the off season.
4. Catcher. I never thought it was possible to find a guy who made 2007 LoDuca look productive, but Omar found one. Yes, he throws better, but I don’t buy that game calling crap for a minute. None of these pitchers can go deep since he arrived. He calls a great game to wear out the atarters. nibble nibble nibble.
5. LF. How could anyone expect Alou to play 100 games????
6. starters: Santana is better than anybody we had last year but Maine and Perez have both stopped improving. Blame Willie. Again, Omar counted on Pedro to revert to his Red Sox days and be a star again.
7. Bullpen. Worse than last year. We have no reliable set up man and the pen is more worn out earlier than last year. Again Omar failed to recognize that miracles don’t happen anymore in the drug testing era. How could he expect Sanchez to instantly return to 06 form. I blame Willie for Heilmann, but Wise/Sanchez to revive the pen, really…..
Fire both and get rid of as many as you can.
MMD just brought up his name as someone that a trade would REALLY shake up the team.
If the Mets weren’t trading him for Johan, I can’t see anyone who they would trade him for. If a roster move is made, it will not be any of the so-called “core” players.
Guv- How is Perez, who is an absolute head-case, and Maine, who has been inconsistent at WORST, be laid at the feet of Willie Randolph?
Maine’s stuff is terrific and I actually agree with Randolph’s PC last night after the game. If you watch Maine’s starts, it’s not so much nibbling, it’s
a) still doesn’t have the greatest control
and
b) hitters foul off a TON of pitches against him
This is his second full season and his only 27…he’s a solid pitcher and will be for the foreseeable future. In fact, to get back to my “b” point, I can’t recall any pitcher I’ve ever seen who works such deep counts based on foul balls alone as Maine does.
It borders on ridiculous, to be honest with you.
Furcal was absolutely tearing it up when he got hurt. He wouldn’t be fair value for Reyes only because he’s a lot older but right now he’s better.
Taylor,
the last thing the mets need is another aging player. If Omar was considering trading Reyes you would have to get back a young player with potential like Reyes.
We are not trading Reyes!! That would be along the lines of the Kazmir trade, its not gonna happen!!
I can say they have deteriaorated mentally, because I agree with Tiffany about the mental aspect of the game. I bliveve that Willie’s stubborn fight to ignore last year has played heavily on the mind set of many players, and the result is lousier perfomance by guys especially young guys like Wright, Reyes, Maine, Perez, Heilmann, all of whom have one thing in common this year. They have all been much worse when games are close than they were last year. Why do you think that is???
It doesn’t matter anyway because Omar isn’t going to trade reyes. I do think though that if Omar is shrewd enough he could unload some of our aging players to teams who are either going to make the playoffs or feel they have a good shot to make to the playoffs and are looking for veteran players because of the experience factor. I can see a team taking Martinez and maybe even Perez. Delgado is starting to hit, his stats are getting better each day. They might be able to trade Delgado and if they have to pay part of salary.
Maine drops down pretty far when he throws, he releases the ball from a relatively low point, and throws a 4 seam fastball most of the time so it really seems to rise to the batters and they usually get under it. If only they would just miss it altogether he’d have like a K per inning.
Anyone read this crap on Mets.com.
Randolph hopes to ‘return the favor’
I’m so tired of this ” We’re not a .500 team ” rhetoric.
Well, whatever it is something needs to change because if Omar doesn’t do something this team will fade away.
Because the team is mentally weak. You don’t blame everything on the manager. Willie Randolph was a championship-caliber player and had ZERO problem uniting a cohesive and boisterous clubhouse in ‘06.
You, JD, or I have ZERO idea what goes on behind closed doors. You see Randolph in his interviews…would you prefer he rant and rave and throw his players under the bus?
That’s not what a good manager does. A good manager doesn’t show weakness, and if he’s pissed, he lets his PLAYERS know about it…not the press.
I can’t believe people continually point the finger at a man who has ZERO to do with the fact that players with track records are not performing up to them.
And why is Reyes even being brought up in this discussion? Ditto for Wright. Neither is tearing the cover off the ball, but Wright is still on pace for close to 30 homers and over 100 RBI while hitting decently and Reyes, while not his ‘06 or early ‘07 self, is playing fantastic ball, save for some defenisve gaffes, over the last 5 weeks.
Players need to produce…bottom line. These are grown men, if they are not embarrassed or motivated enough to want to show last year was a fluke, then they are not mentally strong enough to play this game.
I think Yogi said it best
“90 percent of the game is half mental.”
Mike: Don’t get upset but bases on your statement “That’s not what a good manager does. A good manager doesn’t show weakness, and if he’s pissed, he lets his PLAYERS know about it…not the press.” can I ask what alternative univers did you come from. Does Lou Piniella express his outrage behind closed doors or is he a failure as a manger? Has Ozzie Guillen won less managerial champoionships than Willie Randolp has? Does he keep everthing behind closed doors. Did Manual keep his benching of the MVP Rollins behind closed doors. Did Gil Hodges humiliate Cleon Jones behind closed doors? !NO NO NO. and NO. A good manager does whatever the hell he has to to get all he can out of his players. Doing the same rote thing day in and day out with bad results is not a good manager.
And Reyes and Wright are being brought up because if you would look beyond pure numbers you would know that when push comes to shove in tight ball games they do little to win a game this year.
I would like to see this team add Jose Guillen. I don’t care if he is a nutcase…I want SOMEONE to show some sort of emotion, even if it is crazy…enough is enough
Guv- I’m not upset at all, but I’ve had this discussion many times with people. Not everyone reacts to things the same, and a manager going ballistic, IMO, does little to motivate a team but does EVERYTHING to appease the frustrated fan.
At least that way, the fan feels like he/she is feeling the same way the players/managers do.
Screaming and yelling works for some people and not for others. Randolph may have to go and based on the team’s play, you can’t completely disagree with it, but it goes a lot deeper than Willie not throwing temper tantrums…that doesn’t make a team play better, no matter what instances you bring up.
And BTW…you bring up Gil Hodges…Randolph BENCHED Reyes last year when he didn’t run out a ball. Pulled him. Yanked him.
Lo and behold, Randolph actually caught crap from fans who blamed that on Reyes’ demise through the rest of last year.
The guy can’t win here. He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.
Jason has the right idea. You want some fire and some pep, you bring in different types of players.
That is Minaya’s fault…not Willie’s. Also, while this team is surely lacking in the grit department, no team looks good when they’re losing..particularly when the losing is being done with a lack of offense.
This team’s offense has been sputtering all year…how can any team seem energized or pumped up when they can’t score?
Thank you Mike and Mike (are you the same Mike?, I don’t know) for talking some sense about Randolph and the Mets. Yelling at people doesn’t make them better at what they do. Also the team really is trying their best. When you lose you look lethargic. Would you rather see them celebrate when they lose?
Also fiery players are not better players. Some fiery players are borderline major leaguers. Its better players we need. Not more fiery players. Also more durable players. Injuries have killed this team.
Taylor
you said” Also the team really is trying their best”
So I guess we can safely say .500 is what we are, right? Thats it, end of story? So their max effort is a sub-par .500 record, wow, I dont think so!! They are most definitely not trying their best.
First to Mike: Willie didnt yank Reyes out of the game. After Reyes loafed and was already sitting on the bench, Randolph sent someone else to play SS the next half inning. A good point was made by Graziano of the Bergen Record. When Castro reported just before the game in San Diego, that was willies chance to make a statement. His only statement was its over. Typical weak willie. Castro provided the perfect opportunity, He is totally expendable. We have another backup catcher who is almost the same player. Never mind a suspension, He should have been released. that might have at least sent a message that maybe staying out all night and partying when your team needs you to be ready early the next day is not tolerable.
Also Graziano interviewed Ron Darling who had some interesting things to say about the Mets lack of fire. He pointed to the Dbacks who have the intense Kirk Gibson coaching, and says Arizonas play reflects that attitude. There is a link to the story on metsblog.com.
Well, we all agree about the quality of the team. I was for firing Minaya for a long time. Now I’m for firing Randolph, but I am still for firing Minaya, but I realize it is rare for a GM to go first. You can get rid of the whole team it might be best.
JD, you think Ron Darling knew what he was telling the Star-Ledger guy would end up in the paper? Seems hard to believe that someone would bite the hand that feeds them so easily (not that I don’t appreciate the candor).
Sorry, meant the Bergen Record.
He didny say anything but the truth, he’s been around a long time, I’m sure he knew it would be printed.
Grandpa, I think Darling went as far as he could without going over the line. Credit the Wilpons for employing broadcasters who are sometimes critical of the team. Keith and Gary are also very outspoken on what they see.
my bad, It was Klapisch who wrote the article
JOKE OF THE DAY: Moises Alou will not be in the lineup tonight because he is getting an MRI.
It’s not really a joke though…he really is.
Steve,
If thats true, all you can do is laugh, I am completely at a loss for words, its just keeps getting worse and worse.
So true ‘bout the honesty of the commentators. I’d much rather listen to them call last year’s 162nd game than listen to the Arizona broadcasters call a World Series win.
John: Oh…it’s very true. Check out Metsblog.com
WOW ,UNBELIEVABLE !!
JOHN, just because the team is around .500 right now and they have been trying their best, doesn’t mean that they are just a .500 team. Do you really think that every time a team turns around a disappointing start it is only because they started to try harder? One big, huge, enormous factor that noone likes to talk about is luck. Maybe they will start to get more luck. Also when players go on hot streaks it is not because they suddenly start to try harder. The team is trying its hardest, right now its at about .500, AND it really is a better than .500 team. Maybe they’ll never get that confidence they need and they’ll continue to press all season but its not for lack of effort.
So….... .500 for the last year or so, means nothing, your saying that the last year or so of .500 ball is because of luck ?? This hasnt been a bad start, this has been a bad team, we have been .500 for over a year now, Thats what we are: A .500 TEAM.
Taylor, shouldn’t you be making out the lineup card right now, Wille, wink wink, lol
Church getting a second concussion – bad luck. The Mets management handling of it – bad management.
Alou out again- bad luck
Expecting 300-400 abs from him – bad management.
and on it goes.
Another night of Endy and Tatis manning the outfield corners- maddening.
Omar says the mets are a playoff team if everyone is healthy. IF is the biggest word in the english language.
Taylor: Since you are the rep of people who say this is a good team. Will you please explain why it is a good tream to the rest of us? Why is this team, that has played losing ball since June 1 of last year, a better than 500 team. Help us out. Please.
A few thoughts regarding that position-by-position analysis of 2007 versus 2008:
Castillo hasn’t really declined from last year; his numbers are remarkably the same. What’s more, he represented an upgrade over the 2007 version of Valentin (who started that year as the everyday second baseman).
You curiously didn’t note the difference between Shawn Green and Ryan Church. Are you thinking it’s a wash?
Santana is a huge upgrade over the pitcher he replaced, Tom Glavine.
Regarding Pedro, the Mets were on pace to win over 90 games without him in 2007; what, exactly, leads you to believe that Omar was counting heavily on him in 2008? I’m not aware of Omar dealing away any starters to make room in the 2008 rotation for Pedro’s return.
Beyond that, you have the same personnel not performing as well as they did last year. You can blame age, injury, the price of gas, high pollen levels, etc. for this—but these excuses can’t be reasonably applied to everyone. There is something else at play here, some type of intangible/mental issue in that clubhouse.
I left out all the positions (3) that I see as not worse. Although, it, RF is now far worse.
I based the Pedro being counted heavily on, based on what I read in articles of words attributed to our GM.
I do think Castillo has deteriorated. He has his D some days, and others he’s a defensive slug, not a slug, but he doesn’t move very well. I’m not knocking the guy coming off surgery, I’m klnocking Minaya for leaving him without decent backup. I think I have the range of Easley at 2nd. I also liked Gotay’s hustle and fire, something I think this team misses a lot. He didn’t have the talent of Castillo but he certainly had the drive.
I can now add that our closer has deteriorated as well. Four blown saves in what 17 opportunities. Anthony Young did that well in his pathetic short lived save career.
I’m sure you’re right, there has to be clubhouse issues as well, i just won’t buy that the clubhouse is the cause of all the worsening.