Mets Chat Room: Santana tries to stop the slide edition.
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- May
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The Mets are in trouble and need Johan Santana to stop the slide tonight against Tim Hudson. It won’t be easy. Aces are supposed to stop losing streaks and that’s what the Mets need tonight. I also don’t think it’s a stretch to say they need him because the offense can’t be counted on against Hudson.
Manager Willie Randolph on Santana: “We need a well-pitched game from Santana. Nobody wants to get swept.’’
David Wright said the Mets are “mediocre,’’ and he’s not wrong. If they lose tonight they’ll drop below .500. Raise your hands if you expected this.
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on Thursday, May 22nd, 2008 at 6:04 pm by John Delcos.
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So with Moises Alou heading the disabled list, the Mets had to make a decision on who was going to take his spot on the roster. You would think that because the Mets lost Alou, who is an OF, and have Ryan Church who is questionable for at least the next couple of games, they would call up another outfielder. The way I see it, the Mets need Marlon Anderson coming off the bench, and he’s a liability in the field..
But instead of the Mets calling up an outfielder they recalled Raul Casanova. A catcher. So the Mets will be going with three catchers for the next couple of weeks. I understand that this way the Mets can use Ramon Castro as a pinch hitter, but he hasn’t looked good at the plate, and I don’t think it was the best option for the Mets.
Raking in AAA New Orleans is Valentino Pascucci. Since signing with the Mets organization in early May, Pascucci has hit .291/.380/1.026 with 7 homeruns, 7 doubles, and 16 RBI in just 79 AB. Val played in the Marlins organization last season, and hit 34 homeruns and drove in 98 runs. Not only can Pascucci play both left field and right field, but he can also play 1B. Did I mention that he hits right handed, and is hitting .375 against left handers this season?
So, to go along with a replacement for Alou in LF, Pascucci would be able to platoon with Carlos Delgado, who’s hitting just .217 on the season, and .203 against left handers. Instead the Mets call-up a third catcher who will have absolutely no impact on this team. Great move.
I almost went to an optional work meeting this evening just so I wouldn’t have to watch this game. My only hope is Johan can throw a CG shutout and hit a homerun…
Look on the bright side: The days of Raul “Wine and Roses” Casanova aren’t over yet…
Sure would’ve been nice to have seen the back-to-back jacks, but for some stupid reasons, the Braves aren’t televising it here AND both MLB Extra Innings on Comcast AND mlb.com are blacking out the games…
So I’m listening to Howie and Wayne on mlb.com radio…
I’m with Roger. Why do you call up a third-string catcher to replace a fallen outfielder. I understand Pagan and Clark are hurt, but…well, maybe they can play Castro in left field…now that might be funnier than a “Family Guy” episode.
Roger, I don’t understand the fascination with Pascucci. He has a hole in his swing the size of “Old Faithful” and has a poor on-base percentage while striking out too much. He is your classic AAAA hitter in my opinion.
Our defensive whiz behind the plate really sparkled on that play
Dang, Santana is getting hit hard tonight…
Joe D: Attribute the fans’ premature love affair with Valentino for a desire for the second coming of the immortal Rico Brogna.
Did you fellow Mets Heads read the ESPN article this morning on Santana throwing 4-5 MPH less than he did in Minnesota?
Josh: Take heart. Last year the Mets hit Santana hard, too, at Shea and ended up getting shutout. Maybe the same will happen tonight.
LOL, I hear ya Gil…
Wayne Hagin: “Raul Casanova can play the outfield, but the Statue of Liberty would have a better chance of getting to the ball.”
Castillo is an f-in moron…
Joe D: The words and music of flash-in-the-pan rapper Gerardo’s “Rico Suave” over the Shea loudspeakers still ring in my ears after a Brogna home run.
baffling…
Josh: Where was Schneider on the play? Hagin and Rose both are calling the catcher out for not covering the plate on the ball hit to Castillo. How’d it look to you?
Schneider made a mistake not covering the plate, but Castllo clearly had an easy play at 1st, and should have thrown there…
Is Manny Ramirez playing Second Base for the Mets?
Gil in Savannah, GA,
Castillo had johnson out at first base, if Castillo threw the ball to first johnson would have been out and the run would not have counted.
...And I heard that Santana had sprinted over toward first and could’ve covered, had Castillo elected to throw over there.
We are going to have to break down earned run averages from now on, one for the pitcher, and one for Castillo, who has now given up 4 earned runs in the last 6 innings.
I can see why the Yankees and Red Sox did not fight over Santana. Santana is not worth 5 players and 137 mil from what I’ve seen from him this year. As usual when the Yankees or red Sox don’t want a player it seems like the mets always over pay for a player. Beltran really wanted to go to the Yankees and Boras actually told the Yankees beltran would take less but the yankees weren’t interested. Beltran ends up signing with the mets for 10 mil more a year.
Gil in Savannah, GA,
castillo has him at first base with no problem, you wonder where these players heads are because it isn’t in the game.
Speaking of Rico Brogna and the dreaded, strike-shortened 1994 season, I saw one of Brogna’s teammates from that year in person the other night when I went to a Savannah Sand Gnats game—ex-Met reliever, Jonathan Hurst.
He’s the Sand Gnats’ pitching coach.
So you wouldn’t have traded for Santana????
And Chipper Jones is just ridiculous…
Here comes teriexa with chipper on first. I know it’s coming, the question is when.
Could Delgado have reached the ball Jones just hit?
Rose and Hagin are ripping into him for not diving for the ball and never leaving his feet.
Josh,
at this point it doesn’t matter what the mets do, it never seems to work.
“Roger, I don’t understand the fascination with Pascucci. He has a hole in his swing the size of “Old Faithful” and has a poor on-base percentage while striking out too much. He is your classic AAAA hitter in my opinion.”
He has a .380 OBP in AAA New Orleans. He crushes lefties.
Teixeira is now 16-for-30 this year against the Mets. That’s a .533 average if you’re scoring at home.
Bleeders, Delgado has the range of a lamppost, we are extending innings and pitch count for Santana because of terrible defense. Granted Wright shouldn’t and couldn’t have gotten to that, but come on…
Gil in Savannah, GA ,
every time I see the ball go by delgado it appears he has a beer belly and he can’t reach the ground. The odd thing is he doesn’t have a beer belly but yet he can’t seem to bend down to the ground to retrieve the ball to his right.
Roger, with all due respect, Pascucci has crushed AAA pitching. And at least two other teams have given up on him when he couldn’t hack it in the bigs. And since he’s in his late 20s, he’s no baseball spring chicken.
Is it me, when the mets make out they hit little cheap ground balls to the infield or pop ups but when the braves make an out there all bullets somewhere.
If the mets don’t score more runs than just two there not winning this game because you know Santana is going to give up at least one home run before the night is over.
Tomg: From the sound of things, the Mets are hitting weak grounders because they’re playing into Tim Hudson’s hands. They’re trying to pull change-ups and sinkers instead of laying off those pitches so he’ll elevate them and when he elevates the pitches, hitting them to the opposite field.
I just checked Hudson’s stats and they are better than Santana’s stats. Hudson even has a better whip.
Hudson may have a better whip, but Johan’s got the hardware. I’d take my chances with Santana any day.
I know I’ve said this, but Santana always starts slow, so I would bet money on him being better than Huddy at the end of the year…
How many pitces has Santana thrown so far??
tomg,
Are you watching the same Santana as me? Every hit these guys have have been three bouncers through the infield, an infield single when the man would have been out at first, and a broken bat pop to center. Santana the last two games has been getting men out early in the count.
That was when santana was throwing 95 miles an hour, it’s obvious Santana is not the same pitcher anymore. The funny thing about that was that was what the scouts were saying last year and so far they are correct. The concern was he wasn’t throwing as hard as he use to and gives up to many home runs, sound familiar.
Josh: Santana has thrown 50 pitches. Very efficient.
kevin, i am watching the same game, they hit some shots off him, this last inning yes, he got easy outs but that was the bottom of the lineup. Lets see when the big boys come up for the braves what happens.
Gil – I’m listening to the game on WFAN – didn’t realize that Howie and Wayne were also on MLB.com
Four out of the five innings, Hudson has thrown 12 pitches or less. Whatever happened to hitters trying to work the count? Spoil two-strike pitches? The other day when John Maine pitched, the Braves spoiled 13 of his two-strike pitches. Six out of the eight Braves “spoilers” went on to reach base.
Annie: You have the option. When you click on mlb.com’s radio icon and get the broadcast, when the next screen comes on, you can choose to listen to the road team’s broadcast by clicking on another icon.
In all fairness to Santana he is facing the braves who have a much better offense than the mets. The mets offense as all met fans have witness make a average to below average pitcher look like Cy young.
Hudson got through the 5th on something like 7 pitches.
And Johan matches him with 8 in the bottom half of the frame.
So why hasn’t batting coach Howard Johnson come under fire for the team’s non-existent offense? That position has been a revolving door in years past. Remember the days of Tom Robson? Chris Chambliss? Rick Down? Mickey Brantley?
By the way, in the first inning when the mets were up, Ron Darlin was talking about the speech wright made last night and basically said that he believes there is friction in the mets club house between players.
I can’t take reyes anymore, he truly sucks, big deal, once in a while he has a good game but for the most part he is not a good offensive player. what a total disappointment.
That is a very good point tomg, their lineup is far superior to our’s.
tomg: I’ve thought there’s been friction for a long time. Maybe the team meeting after Wagner’s tirade wasn’t as galvanizing an affair as we’ve been led to believe.
Tom – sorry I missed Ron’s comments – he’s often the voice of reason for this team.
Nice play by Castillo…
Gil = Thanks for the radio lesson – however, since I’m in CT and WFAN is local for me, I guess I’ll just keep it on. I also think that Howie is really a very good broadcaster.
I was wondering about the players myself – particularly David Wright who really has blossomed under Willie’s tutelage, and Carlos Beltran who has a quiet temperment much like Randolphs’.
Annie: My bad. I forgot you live in CT!
The Mets need to score more runs. There not winning this game 2-1.
That’s OK – right now I’d rather be in Atlanta = it is 43 degrees and drizzling!
About the Mets as a team, I wonder if a team captain would make a difference in the issues between manager, ownership, players etc. Derek Jeter certainly has worked behind the scenes for some Yankee situations.
Was Beltran’s baserunning that bad on that grounder?
The ball was hit sharply to the short stop which means Beltran should have held up and gone back to second but Beltran broke with contact which is not the correct play. The answer is yes, it was not a good base running play by Beltran.
Hey, Hudson: SHUT THE %$#$ UP!!!!
We all know the mets will find a way to lose this game, nice play by Beltran in the field, boots the ball and lets johnson go to second.
Watch for the suicide squeeze, boys…
He wouldn’t have thrown him out even if he fielded it cleanly..
And now the guy who was 0-19 against Santana ties the game…
First Beltran’s mistake than wright falling asleep at third base. Wright should have broke back to third and they would have had him and now a guy who is 0- forever hits a bleeder to center field for a base hit. Goodnight, another loss, you can put that in the books.
Before that (from the sound of it, cheap) RBI hit, Infante had been 0-for-19 lifetime against Santana…this could only happen to the Mets…
If there were a way for the Mets to pitch a perfect game and lose, they’d find it. Oh, that’s right. We’ve never even pitched a no-hitter.
I can’t stand the chant, they sound like a bunch of idiots and now the braves are going to win the game. Whatever, I really need to take a break from watching this team because they can’t do anything right. The mets couldn’t buy a win if they tried. It wouldn’t surprise me they go 0-7 on the road trip.
3-2 Braves, and game over for the team, and probably Willie too…
this is going to turn into a big inning now with the braves big boys coming up, game over, good night all, I’m done. Time to change the channel.
Sorry I just woke up to see the Mets go from winning to losing. I should have stayed in bed an hour longer. Can David Wright catch a relay throw? Bobby Klaus would have caught it.
To answer John’s question I did not expect this team would be battling to stay over .500 but I am not surprised. This was a .500 ball club since mid May 2007.
When I call my dad tonight, I’m going to berate him for ever making me a Mets fan.
I find it amazing how many commentators and analysts believe Willie and this team will “weather the storm.” Randolph’s job just flashed before his eyes.
I think Santana could have been a helluva qb, he lead reyes perfectly to second fading away. If you can pinch hit church, why is he not starting?
There was a report on ESPN radio this afternoon that the Wilpons weren’t returning Randolph’s phone calls. I was thinking Randolph’s job was safe for the season. Now I think he should ask Joe Torre if he has a job opening.
I have felt all year the Mets were a .500 team…I just didn’t realize they were such an ugly .500 team. They prove over and over they have an ability to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory…..time for a cold beer!
http://www.myteamrivals.typepad.com/mr_mets_daily
The published report said that the Wilpons refused to return Willie’s call, instead having Omar return it for them. Reportedly, Omar told Willie that the Wilpons wanted to meet with him when the team returned home on Sunday night.
holy mother of god we’re below .500
jd- seriously, what are the odds of the mets firing willie?
Tiffany – Where can we see the reports. I would like to read them.
To all – I think that these Mets are a better team then what they are showing. In all honesty I think it is time for Willie to go. I am not saying to bring in a fire breather. It’s just that Willie has lost his team. It’s there for all to see. They are not responding anymore.
I really think that Jerry Manuel is the way to go. Simply he impressed me with the way he got himself thrown out to protect Willie after Delgado’s non-homer. Just my opinion.
I think that Omar will stay but he’s got to be in some trouble too. And in the end I think the Wilpons will get rid of Willie because of his foolish statement with a 4 game sweep on it’s heels.
Feel free to disagree (or agree) as I know you will. Just remember in NY once you’ve lost the fans, your team, and then make the wrong kind of headlines, your on a very short leash.
David Wright, I love you, but you can’t get doubled off. Now it’s off to Coors field where the Rockies may be struggling but always play well there against us.
It can’t be easy, even for a neutral observer like John Delcos to go into a clubhouse in these circumstances. But you gotta do your job.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05222008/sports/mets/silence_from_owners_doesnt_worry_willie_112074.htm
Wow. It was nice knowing you Willie.
Tiffany – Thank you!!!
I thought yesterday was rock bottom… Keith, would you lie to me?
Bobby Valentinesan, please come home…...
Whether you loved Bobby or hated him, at least the team was exciting to watch…..
This is painful. At least they’re trying, but getting unlucky on all these “at ‘em” balls. And you knew it wouldn’t change in Atlanta.
Don’t fire Willie!
A few days ago I stated that the 08 team was lookin like the 05 team…up and down…good and bad.
I think I have to restate that this team is starting to look like 03.
They were out-hit, out-pitched, out-fielded, and out-hustled, and simply out-classed by the Braves as if it was 2003.
The Mets can go 2 ways. I’m not talkin for this yr, b/c it is what it is and I don’t know if there is anything that can right the ship.
But in the offseason they can do 2 things. They can retreat, like they have done in the past, and continue down the roller coaster slide. Or they can go out and spend even more $$ on better, younger players.
Lastly, Willie better double check that his ticket says Col and not NYC before he gets on the plane.
I really want to know what part of the Mets piss poor play is Randolph’s fault. What can Willie do to fix these problems:
– Reyes playing like shit – Castillo and Delgado sucking – A poor back end of the rotation – Alou being old as dirt – Two reliable bullpen arms – A shitty bench
The team looks flat but what the hell is going to change if you bring in a new face? Is he going to change the way these players play?
I said in the offseason that they should have gone and gotten an OF. They got Church which is good, but we are playing Anderson in the field which should not happen.
At this point I am not against axing Willie. The team needs a spark. He is as good a candidate to go as any. But a poster above said replace him with Manuel which is fine, but not because he got thrown out of a game. Please.
signing castillo will go down as the one of worst moves omar has made in his tenure as mets gm
if the mets get swept in colorado id have to think and hope willie will get axed when he comes back home
You can fire Willie but when your GM leaves your organization in such a state of utter futility that when you lose 2 outfielders in two days, he has to call up a catcher because he has NO outfielder suitable to be even a sub, your GM should be fired alongside your manager. The manager lost the big league team, the GM ruined the entire organization…..
Next NY Met pennant race should be around 2013.
This comes down to two things:
ONE: a disasterously badly-built starting eight.
First baseman sucks, second baseman sucks, catcher is finding his actual level precipitously, left fielder can’t stay healthy and… hell… the right fielder seems like he’s turning into an injury magnet himself.
TWO: Willie.
Can’t motivate a slug to make slime, man.
That’s it. That’s all.
Probably notin will change if Willie is tossed. But the Mets have to do something and they have nothing to trade. And one or two trades won’t make muh difference even if they could do it. So Willie is, unfortunately for him, the odd man out.
The best that can be hoped for is somehow Pedro comes back and he injects some life into the team.
I don’t know who is a free agent next year, but I would be fine with bringing up some minor leaguers to platoon and sub. It seems like we have some relievers who are doing well down there and this team needs energy.
If you can get that as a free agent, fine. But the players better be under 30.
ghost…2013…I hope you are wrong but if Mets FO retreats as I stated above this offseason you could very well be right.
Look at the bright side….at least we are leaving Atlanta. It couldn’t possibly get worse in Colorado..could it?
http://www.myteamrivals.typepad.com/mr_mets_daily
Dave – Take it easy. I said I liked that he did that, not that it was the main reason. He has experience as a MLB manager in a big city, and really there is not much else out there.
And for all of those that think it is the players not Willie. Well, your right, but in any underperforming area the manager/supervisor takes the hit.
Dave,
The Castillo contract is a perfect example of why sometimes, you let your young players play. Just to be clear, the Mets would still be awful if Ruben Gotay was the starter at 2nd base – I have said many times that they are not missing him very much. BUT, if they could have refrained from giving Castillo 4 years – 4 god damn years! -at least they could have replaced Gotay when someone better became available. Now, they are stuck with Castillo, for whom no one would trade for a bag of balls.
And I sit here thinking to myself, why should I care if they don’t?
Just listen to Willie post game..
“You Know”
“You Know”
“You Know”
“You Know”
KNOW WHAT WILLIE? THAT YOU SHOULDN’T BE A MANAGER?
Another winning lineup card filled out by Bobby Cox!!!!
2013 was an optimistic guess. There are less FAs of high talent available as teams even bad teams are signing them young to long term deals, the Mets have nobody ready to replace Alou as FMART is down again so at least a good part of a second straight development year is lost. There is nobody to replace OP, there is nobody to be a 5th starter, there is nobody better than Pelfrey…. There is nobody ready to replace Delgado. They could have kept Gotay who would have been no worse than Castillo and gone after Hudson next year if Gotay failed to develop. They won’t get Texeira as the Yankees will not be outbid especially if they don’t turn around this season… Maybe I should have said 2015?
Anyone else hope the Mets don’t make it to Colorado and get stranded somewhere?
Better then seeing them lose again and again.
Maybe it would build some character, :).
JD,
To answer your question, whether I expected this, if “this” is a 22-23 record, then no. I thought they’d be a few games above .500 at this point. BUT, there hasn’t been a SINGLE moment this season that I believed this was a division winner. I will not believe in this team until they show that they are NOT the 2007 Mets. That, by the way, will take more than 1 good week of baseball.
It is simply amazing how quickly Minaya has ruined this franchise… then again, it isn’t the first time…
I need to find another sport to watch, because right now, watching this team is masochistical…
I definitely place much of the blame on Omar, but his successes outnumber his failures I think. I also believe he can change his approach accordingly. Randolph, on the other hand, is Mr. Stubborn. He wouldn’t change his approach with a gun to his head.
If Minaya has ruined a franchise, it is one he built. What did we have before he arrived? An old Piazza, Steve Trachsel, and a young Wright and Reyes. Kazmir was already dealt. Other than a decent Keppinger and Heath Bell, what young talent have we lost? Granted our Farm system is weak now, but Beltran, Maine, Ollie, Petey, Duaner, hell even Delgado built this team back to contention in 06. Now I will agree he has overplayed his hand with aged Latin talent, but he was in the New York City win now trap that so many GMs fall into, and when they don’t, they get hit just as hard. Ask Brian Cashman. Point being, the organization was in disarray when he took it over, he righted a ship, as briefly as it may have been.
III CANNN NOT TAKE THIS ANYMORE THIS IS DRIVING ME TO SUICIDE!!!!!!! I CAN NOT TAKE THIS ANYMORE ILL END IT!!
Minaya didn’t build the Mets. He ruined them. Look at his moves:
– Signed Beltran. That was a good one.
– Signed Pedro. That was silly since everyone and their mother knew Pedro was on the decline health wise.
– Traded Mike Jacobs and Yusmiero Petit for Carlos Delgado. Jacobs is currently raking for Florida and is under control for quite a while and Petit is still young enough to have some upside. Delgado is has been done since last year.
– Traded Heath Bell and Royce Ring for two career minor leaguers.
– Traded Jae Seo for Duaner Sanchez. Good move but its too bad Sanchez has been hurt a lot.
– Signed Moises Alou who is good for about 100 games a year.
– Traded Milledge for Church & Schneider. So far this looks good but I still think he could have gotten more for Milledge.
– Traded Jorge Julio for John Maine. Good trade.
– Traded Xavier Nady for Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez. I am mixed on this because if they would’ve held onto Bannister then they didn’t need Perez and Nady could have stayed a Met. Now the Mets find themselves wanting Nady back.
– Traded Brian Bannister for Ambiroux Burgos. Burgos sucks and Bannister is a good #4-#5 starter.
– Extended 100 year old El Duque and roid head Guilmero Mota.
– Signed Schoenweiss. Horrible.
– Traded Gomez, Humber, Delios, and Guerra for Santana. Good trade but then he had to extend him to a ridiculous deal. We will see how good this trade is in about three years.
– signed LoDuca to a 2 year deal. Was horrible for the clubhouse and was so-so as a player.
Did I miss anything? These guys are making millions of dollars. Most of them are veterans. They shouldn’t need someone to ‘motivate them’. People pay good money to see them play and invest a lot of time and emotion into them. That should be their motivation. Not Willie Randolph yelling and screaming and making a fool of himself.
Did I miss anything?
Hiring Randolph?!?!?
I don’t think Omar ruined the franchise, but he sure hasn’t done enough to revive it given the large amount of resources he’s had to work with. It’s simply not good enough to say the franchise is better off than in the Howe/Duquette days. I would sure hope so, given the greater number of dollars spent and the incompetence of Duquette.
What I’ve found most troubling about Omar is:
1) The large number of old, often injured and/or declining players he’s assembled. I laugh when some say this team on paper is better than a .500 club. Well the games aren’t played on paper. It’s played on the field. And if a large portion of the talent can’t even get on the field because they’re stuck on paper (the DL list) how the heck can one expect the team to play to “paper” expectations?
2) Omar’s questionable talent evaluation and commitment to building the farm system. From losing Flores for nothing to trading Bannister for a flop, Omar has failed to properly develop and leverage the talent that was already on the farm when he was appointed in 2004. In terms of his own drafting record, who besides Pelfrey is ready to contribute at the major league level today? Sure, he gave away two prospects he acquired for Santana, but he should have produced more than those two and Pelfrey by now. When many clubs have holes throughout the year, they can call up promising young position players. Omar instead calls up veteran retreads, not all of whom are bad, but lacking in the upside and youthful energy that often provides a real spark of excitement to both fans and teammates.
I don’t have much faith for the future with Omar at the helm. He may build competitive teams simply because he will continue to have one of the largest budgets in the NL, but I think he lacks the proper judgment and instincts to build a team that can win it all.
Agreed. I’d like to see Beltran, Church, Schneider, Santana, Maine, Perez, Sanchez and Wise all get younger. If they don’t, that’s definitely Omar’s fault, because he was the man who traded for these aging players.
And, no, he didn’t leverage what he already had in the minors. This, too, is a good point. He tried to turn Carlos Gomez and Lastings Milledge into an ace pitcher, a middle-of-the-order slugger and a starting catcher. This is probably where he went wrong.
And what does he have in the minors now? AAA is a holding pen for retreads, and he’s got those three guys at Binghmamton who are blossoming into offensive forces. And he’s got that Martinez kid, who’s getting older by the minute.
“And if a large portion of the talent can’t even get on the field because they’re stuck on paper (the DL list) how the heck can one expect the team to play to “paper” expectations?”
Hyperbole much? Since when does 3 players constitute a “large portion”?
“Omar’s questionable talent evaluation and commitment to building the farm system.”
I still maintain that Minaya needs to be given about a year or two more before we judge his farm system development. The reason being he didn’t have a lot of draft picks from all the free agent signings, so he turned to the caribbean to acquire top talent instead. Since those kids usually sign on at 16 and 17, the kids he signed in year one would only be 19,20 this year (see Martinez, Fernando). So while he has not acquired young talent that can help immediately, I think his plan was to compete for a few years via free agency and trades while the young talent developed. The problem is the team isn’t coming together like he envisioned.
Everyone can complain about Delgado, Pedro, Alou, and Duque all they want, but the fact is they are only 4 players. IMO, a team that fields Reyes, Wright, Beltran, and Church on offense should be producing more consistently than this. Other than Church, the former 3 are not producing up to expectations and this, imo, is the main reason for the offensive struggles.
Keith—Have you been monitoring the law firm of Evans, Murphy and Carp? They’ll likely have room for one of these, with the other possibly becoming attractive pieces of trade bait.
Come on Mets, your not this bad…
Just like the old saying, your never as good as you look and you are never as bad….....
They will turn it around, Beltran and Wright can carry this club for months once they start hitting…...
PS – What type of year is old Chipper having?? Holy Moly, Larry is on fire!!!!!!
How about Alou, Delgado, El Duque, Castillo and Pedro? How much production have the Mets gotten out of them? Their creakiness is Omar’s fault.
No, he went wrong here: Bannister, Flores, Bell, Lindstrom, Owens, and Keppinger. How are the returns on those players doing?
Why are there so many retreads at AAA? Do you think Omar will ever have it in his heart to part with some of that AAA flotsam so he can promote one of those three guys at Bingo? Or Niese? That Martinez kid sure does seem to get hurt a lot.
Omar has been here 3-1/2 years. There is not one single prospect at AA or AAA who he’s acquired ready to help the club right now. Unless you count Murphy. But Omar’s regime rarely if ever lets players jump from AA to Shea.
I don’t think it’s much hyperbole, Keith. They constitute a “large portion” because they were supposed to be your #2 and #4 starters and one of the big righty bats in the lineup. And the rotation was supposed to be the Mets’ strong point.
Yes, he made the choice to divert more of his resources to Latin America. But as you mention, that entails a longer development time. So a smart GM would not have left the high minors so barren in the meantime. And can you name anyone besides F-Mart who appears promising and even close to the majors from his international recruiting?
There’s a way to get around that by offering players who leave arbitration. It’s the way the Red Sox have been able to keep their early round picks while still signing free agents. It’s called: “Don’t sign so many aged broken down players who you can’t offer arbitration to.” And you get this nifty side benefit to that strategy—more productive players who don’t spend most of the year on the DL.
Leaning heavily on free agency is becoming more and more a bankrupt strategy. That’s because a lot of the best talent these days is signed to long extensions by the teams who developed them. And the talent that remains can command more dollars and years than they are usually worth. Clubs then become tied to long underperforming contracts that weigh the team down.
This Mets team hasn’t come together like Omar envisioned it because Omar has this blind spot when it comes to aging veterans. Even given the FA and trade route, he didn’t need to saddle the team with so many aging creaky veterans all at once.
Oh no? Wright has a .900 OPS. He’s on pace for 126 RBIs which would be the most of his career. What were you expecting instead?
There’s too much pressure on Wright now to carry the burden and so expectations have been raised. But IMO, he’s performing up to the level he’s been at in the past.
Beltran has always been a streaky hitter. But right now he’s on pace for 104 RBIs and an .832 OPS. This is not too far off from the production he’s given the last two years and is very close to his career norms.
Reyes is on pace for 71 RBIs which would be the second highest total of his career. And his OBP is slightly above his career average.
I think because of the pronounced struggles of Deglado and the prolonged absence of Alou, expectations and pressures have been raised on all the other hitters. And we’re viewing their current performance through the prism of these raised expectations and the disappointments of the season. That’s not really fair.
Since Wright is on pace to put up the most RBIs of his career … and Beltran and Reyes are close to their career highs in RBIs, it’s a big stretch to say they are the cause of the team’s offensive woes. Especially when these 2 black holes—Delgado’s struggles and Alou’s absence—are staring us all right in the face.
Even though Church, Wright, Reyes and Beltran as a group are producing roughly to expectations or even a little above, these 4 are no match for the Phillies and Braves lineups. I don’t even think it’s close. But it wouldn’t be too bad if the Mets’ supposed strength, starting pitching, weren’t so watered down by the absence of El Duque and Pedro. Or, of course, if Delgado and Alou weren’t so creaky.
There was just one player on the ‘86 championship team who was 33 or older. There are nine of them on these current Mets—more than a third! And that ‘86 team could do greenies.
“How about Alou, Delgado, El Duque, Castillo and Pedro? How much production have the Mets gotten out of them? Their creakiness is Omar’s fault.”
These guys are mainly support players. We wouldn’t be talking about them if the young guys were performing as expected.
“No, he went wrong here: Bannister, Flores, Bell, Lindstrom, Owens, and Keppinger. How are the returns on those players doing?”
I’ll bet you a dozen doughnuts that Flores is the only one we’ll remember three years from now.
“Why are there so many retreads at AAA?”
Because, if you haven’t noticed, AAA has become a place to store retread insurance policies, not top prospects. AA is now considered the finishing school for top prospects.
“Do you think Omar will ever have it in his heart to part with some of that AAA flotsam so he can promote one of those three guys at Bingo? Or Niese?”
Yeah, but just for a cup of coffee before moving the prospects on up to the bigs. AAA is a destination for the flotsam, but merely a transfer station for the prospects.
That Martinez kid sure does seem to get hurt a lot.
“But Omar’s regime rarely if ever lets players jump from AA to Shea.”
Hmmm. How many AAA innings did Pelfrey throw before arriving in the bigs? How many AAA ABs did Gomez get before arriving in the bigs?
“And can you name anyone besides F-Mart who appears promising and even close to the majors from his international recruiting?”
Didn’t you just concede that international players take a longer time to develop, particularly when they’re being signed as teenagers?
“Oh no? Wright has a .900 OPS. He’s on pace for 126 RBIs which would be the most of his career. What were you expecting instead?”
And that’s a 1.320 OPS against lefties and a .750 OPS against righties. He’s gone .225/.331/.419 against righties. Let’s hope a.) they keep throwing lefties at him and b.) he keeps posting a 1.320 OPS against them.
“There’s too much pressure on Wright now to carry the burden and so expectations have been raised. But IMO, he’s performing up to the level he’s been at in the past.”
He’s a career .300/.377/.514 against righties. He’s absolutely killing the team right now with his current production against RHP.
“Beltran has always been a streaky hitter. But right now he’s on pace for 104 RBIs and an .832 OPS. This is not too far off from the production he’s given the last two years and is very close to his career norms.”
A good May has obscured how bad he was in April, when he hit .200 and slugged .365.
“Reyes is on pace for 71 RBIs which would be the second highest total of his career. And his OBP is slightly above his career average.”
A year ago, Reyes was being described as an MVP candidate.
“I think because of the pronounced struggles of Deglado and the prolonged absence of Alou, expectations and pressures have been raised on all the other hitters. And we’re viewing their current performance through the prism of these raised expectations and the disappointments of the season. That’s not really fair.”
I think it’s the other way around: Reyes, Wright and Beltran are supposed to be the foundational blocks of the offense, guys who are counted on to produce regardless of how the number-seven hitter in the lineup is doing.
“Since Wright is on pace to put up the most RBIs of his career … and Beltran and Reyes are close to their career highs in RBIs, it’s a big stretch to say they are the cause of the team’s offensive woes.”
Oh, that’s it. We’ll just measure everything by RBI totals. That makes sense. Thanks. Beltran seemingly lost his power; Reyes hasn’t gotten on base in about a year; and Wright can no longer hit righties—but, hey, we got RBIs!!
Tiffany, I am aware of Murphy, Evans and Carp, but I didn’t think Omar brought them in, and I am sure our buddy JK would be quick to point that out to us. Also, your response was perfect, I’ll second what you said above in response to JK.
PS: JK, could you please loan Omar your crystal ball? Thanks.
I couldn’t disagree more. Especially in regards to Pedro and Delgado.
Send me the custard-filled ones.
And even if what you say turns out to be true, that is irrelevant. No one is saying these players will turn out to be all-stars. Not even Flores. The point is that all are good, serviceable major league players who could have helped the club the last few years and the next few, supplanting older, creakier, more expensive, and in some cases less productive players.
That’s true with some organizations, but not with all. I think Omar’s AAA teams have taken top honors in recent years for stocking it with useless flotsam like Gerald Williams and Ricky Ledee.
Sure. But after 3-1/2 years, you’d expect more than just F-Mart at AA. Can you even name one promising player at high from the international market?
Really only Pelfrey made the jump almost straight from AA. And he’s the exception to the rule.
Who cares what his splits are? The bottom line is he is on pace to drive in the most RBIs of his career. But you’re worrying about his split or about how clubs may pitch him in the future? Unreal.
Huh? Wright has 24 RBIs against righthanders right now. He leads the team in RBIs vs. righthanders. I don’t know where you’re coming from. It’s bizarre.
LOL, that’s what streaky hitters do. They have good months and bad months. Beltran has been a streaky hitter almost his entire career. And name a Met who hasn’t had bad months at the plate the last 3 years? Bottom line—Beltran is close to his career norms in terms of offensive production.
Yup, and many have conceded that those expectations might have been too high for him. Maybe what we’re seeing from him this year is his talent level.
But they are producing. And I just proved it by showing all are either currently above or at their career norms.
And I disagree with you about both Delgado and Alou. Especially Delgado. Both were still supposed to be key parts of the offense. Delagado is still supposed to be a big bopper in their lineup. He’s only a pipsqueak now.
And as proof, many fans, even on this blog, projected Delgado to have a year closer to 2006 than 2007. I think even JD thought that.
RBIs win games. More than HRs. More than OBP. And besides, as pointed out, Reyes is above his career average for OBP.
Also, as already mentioned, your “Wright can no longer hit righties” spiel is way out of left field. He’s leading the club in production vs. righties.
Should read: Can you even name one promising player at high A from the international market?
Keith: What crystal ball?
OK…since Willie is essentially dead man walking, my replacement would be Ken Oberkfell who has long since deserved a shot on the major league level. And since Omar might follow Willie out the door my choice for GM would be Terry Ryan who did a fine job for the Twins.
On the subject of Omar. He built this team and we did good in 06, not so good after.
Perhaps he does better with small payrolls and cannot handle the excess. or perhaps once he builds a contender cannot take the next step.
clm/JM
i agree on castillo/gotay. too long/rich a contract and other players not hitting is larger than castillo’s ills. but last year gotay did provide energy and timely hitting which we do not have enuf of.
as for manuel. yes, he has been around and i cannot think of anyone waiting who is a must have.
as has been noted the past month or so the Mets should not be a 4th place team. there is blame to go around, but if we want to get somewhere we have to start soon. playing fundamental baseball would be a start. not sure what went wrong because that was the first thing willie got this team to do.
dont we have one or two pitchers and hitters in AAA that might help this team? i thought we did.
“if we want to get somewhere we have to start soon. playing fundamental baseball would be a start. not sure what went wrong because that was the first thing willie got this team to do.”
What went wrong was simple. too many of these guys wre either hurt or preteneded to be hurt so during Spring training, they didn’t do all the hard work required to play fundamentally correct. They didn’t get into a routine of good habits so they don’t play with good habits. Now the two young guys are pressing like crazy and they are makng mistakes because they aren’t relaxed. Its a spiral that is hard to stop. Good by Mr Randolph.
I have to say this about Tiffany – Don’t argue with her. This poster is much more knowledgable about this stuff than I am that’s for sure. But even more—
I love her wise guy attitude and dry sense of humor. Keep it up. You’re my favorite poster.
JK, you’re making a straw argument. RBIs are an opportunity stat. Wright and Beltran hit 3rd and 4th… they should have the most RBIs. The triple slash stats (AVG/OBP/SLG) are a more accurate indicator of how well a player is hitting than RBIs. This is why your argument for Wright producing well against righties is absurd.
Wright is pressing so badly. He needs to be told to sit down, you aren’t playing, be a fan for a day no matter what. Then go out tonight and get drunk somwehere and let it all out of your system.
And Billy Wagner; The mouth that roared. The Mets needed him badly three times since he came here. They needed him in the 2006 playoffs. BILLY FAILED. They needed him to pitch two lousy innings in that last game in Philly and BILLY FAILED. They needed him last night to end a bad skid and BILLY FAILED. The mouth that roared SUCKS IN THE CLUTCH. Amando Benitez/Billy Wagner all the same except Billy loves to beat on his teammates.
Obviously, RBIs are a poor way to compare one player with another, but I think they’re a very fair way to judge a player’s contribution to a team which is what I’m doing here.
While it’s true that RBIs are a stat of opportunity, you can’t say that Wright has had more opportunities than last year or the year before. Indeed the team’s current OBP is lower than the last two years. So most likely his chances for RBIs this year are lower. Yet he’s on pace for the most RBIs in his career.
First off, I never said Wright was hitting “well against righties.” My point is that to imply he was a total failure against them the way Tiffany did is “absurd.” He is after all leading the club in RBIs vs. righties. So at the very least, he is getting the job done against righties when it counts. And, overall his stats are fine. If he’s hitting lower against righties this year, he’s made up for it with better performance against lefties.
You want triple slash stats, Keith? I’ll use OPS which incorporates triple slash stats because it’s simpler. Here is Wright’s OPS for this year, for the first half of last year, and for his career:
.882 (2008)
.879 (1st half 2007)
.917 (career)
So, he’s hitting a tad better than the first half of last year, and he’s just 4% off his career OPS.
Bottom line: Wright is not a major issue on this club when it comes to the offense. Nor is Reyes. Beltran can do better, but he is what he is—a very streaky hitter from month to month who nevertheless usually ends up with good numbers at he end of the year. Plus, he also is currently just 4% off his career OPS.
If everyone were hitting no worse than 96% of their career OPS and/or contributing RBIs close to their career norms, this team would be in a lot better shape. Wright, Reyes and Beltran are all doing that. Delgado and Alou aren’t even close.