Mets Chat Room: Mets survive Perez to beat Reds.
-
- May
- 11
Heads-or-Tails Perez was on display this afternoon at Shea. For five innings he was the “Good Ollie.” Then came the sixth.
Honestly, I’m so glad I was off so I didn’t have deal with that nonsense. I’m tired of watching him. The one good start isn’t worth it for the three that stink. Willie Randolph said Perez can pitch on his team any time.
That’s only because he doesn’t have any better options. That’s why he’ll be an ex-Met this time next year.
This entry was posted
on Sunday, May 11th, 2008 at 1:21 pm by John Delcos.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Share and Enjoy: 
| 
| 
Advertisement
Nice to see everyone get off to a nice start. Hopefully they won't let up and can tac on more runs.
Perez looks pretty good today. I do agree w/John that he will be gone next year. IF. There is someone to replace him. Vargas? Does anyone know how he's been doing in 3A yet?
CLM, I know he itched seven scoreless innings in his last start. His first start wasn't pretty though.
This is my problem with Oliver Perez. He cruises for 5 innings, then the Mets get him a big lead, and instead of going out there throwing straight fastballs and throwing strikes, he tries to be cute throwing backdoor sliders and dropping his arm angle.
Now instead of Perez giving the Mets 7 possibly 8 innings, he's done after 6.
Roger, Can't you be nice ever at least on Mother's Day.
PS: I'm the best TV Mom Mr Delcos…....
I totally agree with both JD's and Roger's comments on Perez. Any GM that gives into whatever ludicrous contract demands Boras throws out for him should get "DUMB" stamped on his forehead. That stupid sidearm slider that he threw to the backstop was totally unnecessary and above all careless, especially with a runner on third. Winning pitchers don't do dumb things like that.
All I know is I don't care what team signs Perez as long it's not the Mets. I want the number 1 draft pick from the team that signs Perez.
Nice guys finish last.. Or in second in the case of Willie Randolph :D.. Second is the first loser.
Welcome back Scott Schoeneweis who made his first appearance after a 5 day vacation. Nice to see that the Mets can finally trust him with a 5 run lead.
The chances are good there will be no draft pick for Perez. Since Boras waits the Mets would have to offer arbitration to get a draft choice, and if the offers are low he'll have Perez take the offer. And he'll stay a Met and make you all miserable again in '09.
Lol sloppy if Perez wants to take a low ARB salary he can come back. I have no problem paying a #5 starter 1 year 5 mil.
No Roger, cruds like you finish last because you are going to die and go to hell where you already belong…. In the case of Willie he may be first loser but ince you are a worthless human you are a much bigger loser because you are loser in life….?
Well Rogoer,In one post you want rid of the guy but in the next post its ok at the proper (in your mind ) salary….. So you have no point or valid opinion….......
Sloppy,
I can hope that Perez signs somewhere else so the mets can get the pick.
"No Roger, cruds like you finish last because you are going to die and go to hell where you already belong…. In the case of Willie he may be first loser but ince you are a worthless human you are a much bigger loser because you are loser in life….?"
Pretty sure you have no idea what your talking about, and pretty sure post like that get deleted, and get you banned from here.
And Sloppy.. I never said I wanted to get RID of Oliver Perez. I clearly stated my problem with him. Do I want to pay the guy 5 years 70 Million? HELLL No.. But if the guy wants to accept ARB for 1 year 5 million sign me up..
Perez does not guarantee us a draft pick if he leaves, he has to be a type A free agent or whatever its called to get us that, and i'm not sure he will be, but we'll see. Otherwise we'll have to offer him arbitration, which really isn't that bad of an idea. Having Perez around for maybe 6-7 mill for 1 year isn't at total loss, singing him to anything more than a 3 year deal would be a loss, and that's what boras will demand. Therefore, you can have it both ways, sloppy isn't dumb you guys, he actually knows what he's talking about half the time… heh. If Perez is our 4/5 starter on a one year deal for that much money, i'd take that no questions asked. As a #3 making 10-12 mill a year for 4 years, no way.
oops, that was Roger who made that point, all credence goes to him, sorry for giving sloppy credit guys, you know that was hard for me anyway…
metsfan,
I pretty sure that Perez will be a group A free agent.
I think the "delay" was because the umpires thought there was two outs.. I saw the Mets keep putting up 2 fingers, and the umpire even saying there was 2 outs.. Then I thought the second meeting was to correct it, and they found out it was one out.
Reds announcers said Patterson batted out of order. Perez struck out 8 batters and gave up 3 runs in 6 innings. The maddening thing about him is he looks like a cy young winner for 5 innings then loses it. Hes got one of the best arms in baseball. I wouldnt be so quick to want him out of here. Hes only 26 years old, too. We got the win we needed today, and the offense looked great. Ken Griffey looks like he is really dogging it. He would be booed mercilessly at Shea.
That batting out of order deal in the ninth was wild. I can't remember seeing that since I left the Little League.
http://www.myteamrivals.typepad.com/mr_mets_daily
Ollie should be at least a type B free agent which would still get the Mets a first round sandwich pick. I would offer him arbitration, unless he falls apart this year. I have a feeling he'll be on and off all year. Even the inconsistent Ollie is valuable at around $6 million a year, especially if it's only for one more year. He's just too risky to give a long term contract to at $10+ million.
I love you too metsfan…. I may know half the time. But I am right about getting a draft pick.
If a guy signs elsewhere before the date his old team has to offer arbitration you get a pick, based on his stats compared to all the other players. The assumopotion is made that the losing team would have offered.
If a guy signs elsewhere after the date you haver to offer arbitration you lose the rights to a draft pick if you fail to offer arbitration. If you offer and the player accepts he's yours again. He loses hos rights to fre agncy. If he refuses arbitration you get a draft pick if he signs elsewhere, but with the change in rules last year you can still sign the guy as a FA. It used to be you had to wait until 1 May.
Roger I could care less what you say or think. Getting chewed out by Donna Reed.!!!!!!!! That's lower than getting chewed out by the DC dope. Congratulations to you…...
Oh metsies, take pity on me. ive been in the NYC being a good son on Moms's Day, and look at this terrible news out of Washington DC. I think we will lose our team again and I will have to become a lttle metsie again!!!!!
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nationals_book_it_after_foul_ball
How would Perez end up with less money in arbitration this upcoming offseason then he won in the last offseason?
If Perez takes arbitration, he's getting at least 9-10 million, and thats probably just a start.
I'm all for resigning Perez, there is NOTHING that we can get that would replace his numbers (which will more then likely be right where they were last year) on the farm or in free agency.
Unless you guys are fine with a rotation of Santana/Maine/TBD/TBD/TBD, Perez will be the best option for the team come Decemeber.
Honestly who else would make sense? This free agent class of pitchers is AWFUL.
"Roger I could care less what you say or think. Getting chewed out by Donna Reed.!!!!!!!! That's lower than getting chewed out by the DC dope. Congratulations to you…..."
Ok, sloppy. That's why nobody here respects you. And you act like I care what same big girl says about me.
Back to the game. OP was his typical self but Mets took 2/3 from Reds which is ok. 3/4 from Nats. 5-2 homestand.
Even if Ollie would get $9-10 million in arbitration, it would be worth it to offer it to him—as long as he's as effective this year as he was last year. It would only be a 1-year commitment and that gives the Mets additional time to see whether or not he is worth a longer-term contract. Chances are he won't accept it anyway and the Mets would then get a draft pick.
Can't resign Perez unless he undergoes a fundamental change. It's just torture too much of the time.
Kirk, this is Peter…
Chris can I get two shot sheets and box scores to the floor, please?
pvhornet05 – Thanks for the info.
DC – The Onion? Ah, no wonder I like your humor!!!
Just keep winning series and we'll be in first before you know it.
I am a good little Metsie becaue I enjoy the ups and downs. And I think the Mets are starting to put it together. Hope I aint jinxing 'em.
Roger do you even know who Donna Reed was? Of course not, but just like your long winded and very inaccurate posts, you blab away anyway. Maybe that's why your site is so empty you need to come here.
Again, sloppy.. I don't expect the site to be a "big" thing. I really don't. I have my loyal readers who continue to come back and read the site. It's a hobby. I don't sit there all day and blab, as you think. When I get a feeling, I post it. I don't know who Donna Reed is, and I don't care. Anyone who has to make abusive ignorant statements deserves no respect.
She responded to something that I said sarcastically, and if you don't care what I have to say, you don't have to read it. I know plenty of people on this site that agree with what I say, and I know many people who wished you were gone.
If your looking for some very inaccurate posts with lots of blab you should visit metsfever. This is the first i've heard of mets prospectus (wow that banner is bad) but I know that i laugh when ever i read an article at Metsfever. the writer Ed just babels on about such random stuff, it's pretty entertaining. I dont know how many articles i've read about tony armas jr there.
Good Mets site:
lemonparty.org
My buddy told me to check you guys out….. All I can say is fight metsies fight…... Fight Roger, fight Sloppy fight fight fight… Mets fans are the most obnoxious bunch anywhere clearly outdistancing Philly fans in being arrognat, abusive and disloyal… fight fight fight…. I checked the site that seems to be the center of so much intrigue. If that'e the best you can do Roger get a new hobby. I wouldn't link to it for others to see your stuff!!!! I'll be back here when my buddy is back where its safe from you nasty people….....Fight fight fight…...
and I'm sure most posters would be glad if you were both gone. But don't come to DC We don't want your arrogance here. This is a fun place to come to….. good site… ain't it Roger and sloppy…?
I'm trying to figure out why as a National fan, you think you have the right to make fun of anybody. The Nationals are a joke of a franchise, who haven't been competitive in years. I wouldn't be surprised if the tickets were free to the new stadium, they need some way to get people to watch that AA team.
Hey Roger the man or whatever ego trip name you give to yourself. I'm gonna talk to my buddy and maybe we'll take over your site. How's that sound? Metsfans are nasty there too but if we get 3 or 4 of us we can outnumber them and make it a fun site OK? Plus all the guys here will be happy when DC leaves. a win win situation… Can't do better than that…... I guess the sloppy guy won't be joining in will he?
your speaking in the third person for what reason?
You Suck Delcos…you're sight is a joke….I hate your sarcastic comments in fact I hate you.
Some of you may dislike me. You may make ignorant comments about me for no reason, but at least I'm not an idiot like "NR"
I respect most of the people on this site, and I greatly appreciate the work Delcos puts in to give us all these updates.
To NR: What can I say? Direct and to the point. Nice work. Except it should be site, and not sight. See, when you're going to attack like that you should get it right.
I think I will leave your post up so when I get emails asking about why I would ban somebody I can just direct them to your work of art. You take good care of that foul mouth of yours. Cheers.-JD
JD, I am with you on Ollie. I'm actually a big fan of his, but it's because I see a guy with filthy stuff and I see how good he could be… but he is definitely too risky to dump a huge contract on.
Instead, I say the Mets should let Duque, Pedro, and Ollie all walk. They need some more dependable pitchers. Turn around and sign a guy like Jon Garland or Derek Lowe. These guys would be perfect #3 type starters who would go out there and throw 200 ip per year and be nice fits for CitiField (as it is supposed to be a pitcher's park). Then, you hope Pelfrey continues to develop. This would leave one spot open. Do you sign another FA, or would someone like Niese be ready? After seeing what happened with the Yanks this year, would Minaya and the Wilpons depend on a young gun in the year they open a new ballpark?
I think these DC guys are all yankee trolls and should be banned. Why didnt dc tell me where he/she posts when I asked last week. As far as Ollie goes, Its a long year, and by the end of it many may be clamoring for his return.
No matter how many "DC" names are used, they are all the same person!
I AM AN INTERNET TOUGH GUY! I hate confrontation in real life, but here, aren't I impressive?
Regarding NR, I'm getting tired of Delcos' relatives stopping by here and clogging up the threads.
JD, you might as well stay home today. The Mets don't want to play this game b/c then they will have to bring up Bostick for Wed game. Mets will hope rain hangs around until 7pm tonite.
Keith,
I totally agree with you about letting go Pedro, El Duke and Perez and looking elsewhere. I rather see the mets get the pick than to resign any of these pitchers. I have to admit though that there really isn't any good SP in free agency next year except for CC Sabathia but the two you mentioned I would consider and are probably the only decent ones out of the free agent market for SP's.
DC,
"Mets fans are the most obnoxious bunch anywhere clearly outdistancing Philly fans in being arrogant, abusive and disloyal…"
DC, I have to disagree with that statement. Philadelphia fans are clearly the number one fan base that are drunken, belligerent, arrogant and nasty fans. I have to say that Boston is second, Yankees are third and the mets are fourth. But clearly Philadelphia fans are the worse. If you don't believe me go to a Philadelphia eagles game with a giant jersey or a flyers game with a ranger jersey or a Phillies game with a met jersey, you might not come out alive.
Bostick? I think Wednesday will usher in the start of what historians will later refer to as "The Ruddy Lugo Era."
Tiffany: Bostick or Lugo? The options don't get any better than that.-JD
Regarding Perez, he's going to get his long-term deal at $10 million per pop. The question is whether he makes sense for the Mets. And that answer is all about Pedro. If Pedro comes back (he does, arguably, have a new arm now) as a #2 or a #3, then Perez won't be more than a fourth starter for the Mets; in which case, you let him walk. But, if you're cutting your ties with Pedro, there becomes a huge hole in the rotation behind Johan and Maine.
Perez can certainly be frustrating to watch. But he did win 15 games and finish in the top ten in ERA last year. And he did this at the age of 25.
So, it begs the question of which will be easier: To sit through his frustrating lapses of concentration or find another 26-yr-old power lefty who can win 15 games and finish in the top ten in ERA?
Tiffany: The Mets should make their decision on Perez separate from that of Pedro. There's no way they should be counting on Pedro for anything next year much less this.
They'll make a run at Perez because they have to considering their lack of pitching in the minors and a thin market.-JD
I missed the second half od the doubleheader and yesterdays game but let me get this straight.
Fist half. Delgado batted 7th and we won. The second half he was upgraded to the 5 SPOT? and we lost. then back down to 7th and we won.
And what have we learned????
To Steve C: Probably nothing. Willie all but yawned when he was asked the Mets' record with Church hitting second. It will change with Delgado, too.-JD
I understand what you're saying, John, but the context means everything. If Perez is your number-three starter, you'll likely pay more for him than if he slots in at number four. And Pedro can be a big determining factor in that.
What makes Pedro such an intriguing factor here is that he largely became a junkballer before his surgery—so velocity isn't really the issue for him. In a famous quote, Bobby Cox noted how Pedro had beaten the Braves with a fastball that topped out at 84 mph. I think if Pedro is healthy enough to pitch, he'll be smart enough to win. He could literally be the next Jamie Moyer: Not an ace, but a reliable #3 guy.
Hey Willie really showed his acumen with that batting out of order thing yesterday…
Let's pretend that Omar and Tony B. were in a car accident and that I became GM for the next 48 hours…
I would spend every waking moment trying to convince Duaner Sanchez that he should accept a demotion to the minors to regain his velocity.
Tiffany,
"I would spend every waking moment trying to convince Duaner Sanchez that he should accept a demotion to the minors to regain his velocity."
I knew when Sanchez was in that accident that he would never be the same pitcher again and it looks like my assumption was right. It appears as he pitches more and more his velocity is going down which is why all of a sudden he is getting hit and giving up runs. I don't think sending him to the minors is going to help him get his velocity back. I think his arm is just not the same anymore. Sanchez career could be done.
Willie yesterday going out prematurely to bring up the reds batting out of order has now convinced me that he is completely clueless and is not a good manager. I hope this is his last year managing the mets.
A month or two of steady work would provide a better idea of whether Sanchez just needs to rebuild his arm strength or whether it's time for "Goodnight, Irene." The Mets just can't afford to give him that opportunity on the big-league level.
tomg: You say that if you go to a game in Philly wearing a NY jersey of any sort you may not come out alive… So that begs the question to me….Are you a deceased tomg?
Yes, I am a ghost!!!
RE: (Sanchez): The Mets took their time in bringing back Sanchez. He hasn't pitched well. I would presume the worst about him and that this might be as good as it gets for him.-JD
Tiffany,
Ye, I see your point, I agree. I would have thought that he would have been working on building arm strength in the off season.
If you become the GM Tiffany I will become a little Metsie…........
That's what I think JD, I think that by him losing velocity the more he pitches shows me his arm isn't good anymore. I think his career might be done.
I see the BEST young SHORTSTOP in baseball just signed a very long contract with Florida…. Uhoh Metsies won't that just make you little Metsies more nutso when the Marlins win their 3rd championship while you waste all that money on not winning? Don't you wish Jose Reyes could hit almost as good as Ramirez?
DC,
there is no doubt that Ramirez is a very good hitter but his defense at short is not very good. He is by far a better hitter than reyes but reyes is a much better fielder. I rather have my short stop a better fielder than hitter. I can see the marlins moving him to the out field down the road.
I think you metsies knock his fielding too much. He is an awesome player….... He can produce more offense than all of our starters combined, and then some. And he doesn't seem to pout for months at a time like your Jose does.
I feel bad for your Sanchez guy. Even though he's a Metsie having your career ruined in taxi cab really is sad sad sad. He is one metsie I'm rooting for….
Delcos you really should work down here because assuming the worst about every player is always correct here. Its only correct most of the time with the metsies….
Sanchez-Gary Cohen stated that Guy Conti does not feel that Sanchez has let the ball go yet. Let's hope that is the issue. Does Sanchez have options? If not Joe Smith is the odd man out.
OP-If Pedro goes out and wins 8-10 games I'd bet Mets will resign him for a yr w/an option for a 2nd. Then even if OP wins 15 or so, they will claim that Boras' demands are too high and they won't sign him b/c they have Santana, Maine, Pedro and Pelfrey plus a scrub.
The rotation this wk-if the game is rained out tonite, then it appears that only one game will have to be pitched by a NO guy even w/the 23 games in 22 days starting 5/20. If they do not have a rain out tonite, then the NO guys will have to pitch b/w now and 6/8.
If the Mets let OP walk, just make sure they have someone better to replace him. He is frustrating but he has talent and good games. I was just thinking: suppose the Mets kept Nolan Ryan for just one more year…...
Anyways two out of three, Pelfrey pitched well in the loss, now in second behind the Marlins. Just keep building on it.
I've seen Duaner struggled badly in two appearances.
And that means he hasn't looked good??? I've seen him in his other outings and he looked fine to me.
It's not the $ amount that scares me with Ollie or pitchers in general, but the years. You don't mind giving the years to a guy like Pedro or Johan, because they know how to pitch, so any loss of stuff and they'll still be effective and keep you in ball games.
Ollie relies strictly on stuff. Imagine giving him 5 years and 3 years in he loses all his stuff. He would get rocked harder than Victor Z.
Keith—If you give Ollie five years and he self-destructs in Year Three, you're only wasting money, which the Wilpons should be printing up in the basement by the third year of CitiField. The greater risk, in my opinion, is letting him walk and then trying to replace his 15 wins and top-ten ERA.
The other thing to remember is that, while Ollie relies strictly on stuff right now, there's the chance he matures into a pitcher who can use some guile, as well. It's hard to give up on a 26-yr-old lefty power pitcher because he's immature.
What we have learned is that way too much faith has been given and is constantly given to Delgado. He has yet to earn it. One game doesnt absolve one. consistency absolves.
He needs to stay 7th until he actually breaks out.
Ollie needs to listen to pitching coaches. As i said earlier when he listens he excels when he thinks he is better than he is , he craps out.
As far as willie being manager, he's probably trying to be an even handed calm manager. We can all second guess him because hindsight is 20-20.
With that being said. lets win some more!!!
Tiffany, I don't measure a pitcher's effectiveness by wins. And sure, his ERA may be low, but he allows a ton of unearned runs. Plus, look at his career. You're willing to make a long term investment in someone with that track record?
"The other thing to remember is that, while Ollie relies strictly on stuff right now, there's the chance he matures into a pitcher who can use some guile, as well."
And I think the above quote isn't very realistic. If you want to make that argument for Maine, I'll listen to it. But Ollie has difficulty repeating his delivery and is all over the place. He's not exactly a control specialist. Once you lose a couple of miles off the fastball and the slider doesn't bite as much, those guys on base via walk turn into big time runs from homers.
I hear what you're saying about the wins, but let's not forget that Ollie's 15 wins were supported by an ERA+ of 120. That's very different from when Trachsel won 15 with an ERA+ of 88.
When you get right down to it, Ollie's problems are between his ears. Power lefties with multi-pitch arsenals don't grow on trees; I think you have to be very patient with one who has shown the ability to put it all together but suffers from occasional lapses in concentration.
The huge amount of unearned runs last year gave Ollie a deceptively good ERA (and ERA+). Not only that, but many of the errors that led to these unearned runs were his own. He'd throw a ground ball wildly to second base in an attempt to get a lead runner and it would sail into the outfield, for example. So you have to look at last year's ERA with a grain of salt.
I think it's too early to judge Ollie and whether or not to offer him a contract. They probably want to see how he does the rest of the year first. But even assuming he has a year as good as last year, you know the Mets probably won't give Boras what he wants and won't be the high bidder.
At any rate, they should offer arbitration so they get the draft pick if he leaves.
While you are correct in saying that OP gave up many unearned runs last year was not the norm for him.. He gave up 20 last year and only 20 in all his other years combined.
In his one other good year, he only gave up 6 unearned runs. The real point is that he hasn't been a very good pitcher for most of hios career, but on the other hand Mr Koufax wasn't very good either until around 26, so giving up on him is as much of a risk as not giving up on him.
There's a difference between "giving up on him" and choosing not to invest 5 years and $60M in him. And invoking the name Koufax isn't a great example. He is the exception and not the rule.
Look, I am a huge Ollie fan. I love having him on this team and I love his stuff. But, like most ballplayers who become free agents, I just don't think he'll be worth what he'll get on the free market.
I'll accept your Koufax point. Jerry Koosman had his break out year at the age of 26. Warren Spahn had his break out year at age 26. Randy Johnson had his break out year at 30. Ron Guidry had his break out year at age 26. Mike Cuellar had his break out year at age 29. Gary Peters had his break out year at age 26. Chris Short had his break out year at age 27. David Wells at age 27. Al Leiter at 30….
A question for you Keith. Why is a player not worth what the market will bear? If the market says you, in whatever profession you are in, are worth 2 million a year, are you not worth it? Aren't you, as are ballplayers worth whatever the payer is willing to pay for your work? If the market says your value is low you don't get the big deal like Kyle Lohse….....What am I missing, please….
ghost, because the market moves from offseason to offseason. Two offseasons ago Meche and Lily received nice sized contracts. This offseason, guys like Jeff Weave and Kyle Lohse weren't even getting a sniff.
Plus, the market isn't always right. Was Zito worth as much as he got, even before his implosion? I didn't think so, and neither did the Mets, which is why they didn't make a strong push for him.
So just because Ollie gets 5 years 60M from someone, that might only be what he was worth to that 1 team. That doesn't mean anyone else thought he was worth that. If I were the GM of the Mets, Ollie is not the kind of player I would invest that kind of years and money in, regardless of what the market said he was worth. So if someone wants to give Ollie that many years/$, god bless 'em. I don't think he's worth that, because I don't place that kind of value on his production.
The Daisuke sweepstakes are a really great example of why the market isn't perfect. The Mets edged out the Yankees for second, but they had bids in the same ballpark. The Sox came in and blew everyone away for Daisuke. Now the Sox look smart. Daisuke is pitching great, but like the Zito example shows, you should only set the market if you are really confident in that player. We're talking Manny Ramirez, ARod, Jeter, Johan, Pedro type players.
Look at a guy like Billy Beane. He plays the "market" like a seasoned broker. With a high success rate, he sells high and buys low. He got fantastic performance from a guy like Haren on the cheap, sold on him before he became super expensive, and re-stocked his system with cheap and effective young arms like Eveland, Smith, and Gio Gonzalez.
I don't know what the Mets situation will be like come this offseason. Perhaps Niese will be ready to go. Maybe another minor leaguer emerges. But even if that isn't the case, I would personally rather give Derek Lowe 3 years for 27M or Jon Garland 4 years for 36M than Ollie 5 years at 60M.