Mets Chat Room: Salvaging the trip.
-
- May
- 7
When you win two of three against the best team in the majors and play to avoid being swept on the final day, it makes for a disappointing trip. That’s the position the Mets find themselves in today.
John Maine seeks his first win over the Dodgers this afternoon. Carlos Beltran, who didn’t start last night because of flu symptoms, is in the line-up. Carlos Delgado and Moises Alou are sitting.
Hope you tune in.
This entry was posted
on Wednesday, May 7th, 2008 at 2:51 pm by John Delcos.
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Alou played really hard last night and is probably wiped.
Willie is finally telling Delgado. look you suck.
if we win today, its a .500 road trip against the best two teams on the west coast. I'll take it.
Setting your standards kind of low, aren't you?-JD
I said it last year. I rather win or tie a series than lose it. I'll take 2 out of 3 games all year long.
JD: I'd rather be realistic than greedy ;-)
Steve C.: Maybe so, but with the way the trip started, and if they could hit at all with RISP, they should have already won three or four.-JD
A few things:
-Orlando Hernandez has the boot off and has been cleared for light running and throwing.
-Pedro Martinez will work off the mound Friday.
-Matt Wise threw an inning in an extended spring training this morning.-JD
JD
Left you a few shake up ideas on the line-up post – if you get a chance check it out, don't want to repost it
Penny's a punk of all the guys that Ox could call out he goes after Shawn Green
JD: agreed. the way it started. But I noticed this last year. some of the players get too cocky. and others appear not to try.
Again, I question the level of significance that's being given to the return of Matt Wise. I admit that I've not seen the guy pitch much, but he wasn't all that impressive in the two outings he had before he got hurt, and his career numbers aren't all that great either. Why is his return such a big deal…especially if it's going to mean making a tough decision in terms of how to make room for him???
Ugh…talk about a tough break there. Finally a big hit with RISP, and it happens to end up being a run costing ground rule double.
Nice!!! Finally some hits with RISP!! They need to clean up on Penny in this inning. Maine needs to lay down a nice bunt, and Reyes needs to drive Casanova in. These guys need to develop a killer instinct and not blow these chances
BULLETIN … BULLETIN … BULLETIN
We interrupt this blog to tell you that a New York Mets baseball player has just gotten a hit with runners in scoring position. This is not a joke.-JD
MLB really should adopt this policy of allowing a 28 man roster with 3 inactives per gameday. Someone mentioned it in the game thread last nite and I think it's a great and senible idea.
RMK, it's all about upside. I know Wise wasn't lights out for us, but his last outing he looked nasty… of course he then gave up a homer. Personally, I've seen enough of Sosa. Let's give Wise a shot. Plus, if Sosa isn't on the team then Willie can't use him.
JD: The team should have been waiting at homeplate to mob Church.
That's two in one inning.-JD
wow 3-0
starting out like yesterday.
They should let the back-ups play again Friday. If they stay hot, why not ride it?-JD
Man Wright is just awful at the plate right now. The one encouraging sign is that at least he's trying to go the other way. That's how he broke out of his slump last year. Still, for someone who's touted to be the team leader and a major run producer, he needs to cut this inconsistency out. I know it's hard to be "on" all season, but his avg has dropped like 40 pts in the last two weeks. That's horrendous.
JD: i have said it before. I will say it again. Its all about Who's on 1st.
JD: Was Maine's pitch count of 10 in the 1st inning, the season low so far for a Mets starter in an inning?
RMK, you're definitely being a bit hard on Wright. Even ARod, with his ridiculous year, slumped last season. Tomorrow will be a much needed day off for David.
JD, I agree, but no one knows how to snuff out a hot streak like Willie.
Keith: I guess I am, but his avg has dropped a huge amt the last couple wks. That's not just any slump that he's in. He needs to snap out of this. On the bright side he's been playing stellar defense.
man that was a fast inning.
Well, remember, it's only May. Averages will fluctuate like crazy this early in the year. Remember how fast he pulled his average up after a dreadful April?
Delcos: Do you think you could beat Raul Casanova in a foot race?
The problem with Willie is that he seems to not believe in streaks. Just way he makes comments to blow off any of his players' cold streaks, he does the same with the hot streaks which dumb.
Another good note…Beltran has hit the ball hard in his last two ABs.
Steve C: I agree…this has to be a season record so far for efficiency for a mets starter over a 2 inning span. Hopefully he can keep it up.
Gotta keep piling on here! No weak ABs or weak ground balls!
UGH…now that was a WEAK AB…but at least it got the run in. They need to keep adding on.
Wow…very iffy call on the Pagan steal there, but looks like maybe he got in there just under the tag
doesnt matter. i'll take a run an inning at this point. someone said something. because these guys are lit up.
Maine needs to stay in the groove now. Keep throwing strikes and staying efficient.
Steve: It could just be the fact that their facing Brad Penny. They always seem to perk up when he's on the mound.
Good sign, they tacked on a run.
JD- I understand where you're coming from in regards to this trip, but I think you're being a tad overly harsh. Yes, the team wasted opportunities on Monday and then yesterday was just a disaster…they had that game one, basically because it should have been at least 6-0 after three.
That being said, you travel west against the best team so far in baseball and the hottest and go 3-3? I'll take that when it's all said and done.
Maine lost his focus there on Hu. He pulled a Perez in that sequence falling behind 3-0 and then giving him a fat one to line the other way. At least Penny bailed him out with a nice easy one
What happened to pagan? why out of the game? following at work
He has "an apparent shoulder injury."
Another great Inning.
Yeahs something about the mets facing that Bad Penny.
;-)
did he get hurt while stealing?
Mike: I hear you, but I don't agree. Good teams need to put away the opposition when they get a chance. I'm not saying anything the Mets aren't saying about themselves. These guys say are playoff caliber. Then prove it, and winning out here is a way to do that.-JD
Ron and Gary are thinking that Pagan hurt his left shoulder when he made a tumbling catch in the 1st inning (fell into the stands on a foul pop) then aggravated it when he slid headfirst into 2nd on a stolen base in the 3rd
The Mets are saying he has tightness in his right shoulder. A combination of the fall and the slide.-JD
RMKMets: Thanx for the update.
Wright again with another bad AB. He swung at two balls out of the zone then grounded out weakly to 3rd.
RMKMets: I think they are trying to win this one against Penny for Shawn Green.-JD
yeah he's slumping again like last year. but he woke up and watch out. so lets hope he wakes up. at least his glove isnt slumping…
JD-Then we'll agree to disagree. I'm always more of a glass 1/2 full guy, myself and while I do agree that this trip could have been better, when it's looked back on, 3-3 against the two hottest teams (coming into their respective series') is not bad.
And we all know that most of the Mets WC trips over the years are not always kind.
There's been some questionable calls on low strikes in this series. Very inconsistent
Wow…Maine is really on his A game so far today. He got that fastball up there with some movement on it to K Kemp
This is just like: how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
1,2,3… thuree.
Can we get some fire Willie talk out there?
Wow…good comeback on that sequence against Kent. He fell behind but came back with some nice pitches to strike him out.
What's really nice for a change is not about Maine's performance in this game thus far is not just the efficiency but the fact that for once, a Mets starter outside of Santana is actually challening hitters.
Kent was none to pleased about that. Especially because Maine hit him in the head last year at Shea. You could actually see Kent put two fingers up when looking at Casanova/ump or the Mets dugout when he first got up.
Sorry let me rephrase my point up above because it came out wrong:
What's really nice for a change about Maine's performance in this game thus far is not just the efficiency but the fact that for once, a Mets starter outside of Santana is actually challening hitters.
That pitch clearly got away from Maine…it tailed inside. UGH…Beltran got robbed by Loney there
Delcos: Have the players mentioned anything this week about Green and Penny to you?
Hmmm…if it wasn't Penny out there I'd have thought that was an innocent pitch at Church
quick game so far
Unreal…this game, thanks to the umpires, has become completely soft. For God's sake…warning after the ball was inside and nicked his friggen SHIRT?
God.
I hate how the Umps go out and warn the teams prematurely. They have NO SENSE anymore about how these players police themselves out there and the code of the game. What idiots.
http://sportsmaniacs.ipbfree.com/index.php?
great new forum looking for new members please join and sign up
he's a Bad Penny.
RMK-I hope it WAS intentional. That's the way the game should be played…but isn't because it's become too soft with so many players being buddy-buddy and the umpires warning everyone the second a pitch comes within 30 feet of a batter.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Penny just did.
I hate this rule about warnings- Maine is pitching a gem if a ball slips he's out
yeah. Ron and Keith will tell ya. you are suppose to go after the guy thats hot. nd then let his pitcher retaliate if necessary. Upms are a bunch of panzies.
lets go we have RISP~!
Anderson should start at first – he's a spark plug – both games he's started he's made exciting offensive things happen….. You want a defensive replacement bring in a guy like Doug to many letters in my last name M. there proving they dont need delgado
edfever: welcome to the darkside.
Atta boy Johnny!!
Ha…I bet Penny is regretting that bean ball now. Nice job by Maine
This is where main hits a grand slam. but i'll settle for a bloop single.
wow. he heard me!
Tacking on. I like it! Maine's 1st hit of the year I believe.
Penny must be getting frustrated; a lot of Mets are getting on base by hitting good pitches, or at least pitches that are out of the strike zone. Good day for us!
Mike: I'm with you. Just wondering out loud about it given the way the idiot umpire warned both benches
I've been saying for awhile to try and move Delgado – SF is begging for a big name first baseman – lets make a deal
Tiffany: Nothing. Not a word about it from the players. We've talked about it a little in the press box.-JD
Penny looking to threaten Green ….whos sitting on his deck in malibu smiling at the big fool
edfever: Why would the Giants, a team that's not going to win this year, spend all that money for a player it won't keep after this year.-JD
Gary was talking about Maine's hit and called it a dork instead of a dink… funny kid does look like he belongs in a lab instead on the mound
Ticket sales
walk year- trade a contract they dont want hope his name brings people out and then their out of both contracts at the end of the year
Garcia should be pitching may 15th as per heyman's colum todayand were getting 3-1 odds for tex
Penny's ERA went from a stellar 3.19 to an ugly 4.79
Yeesh.
Who is this team and what have they done with my Mets???
Wow. A game they are coasting and I can't watch.
Maine needs to just throw strikes now.
11 Run lead = Eight innings
Figures this has to even out somehow. aine was so good thru the first 4, and now he's pitching like a typical Mets starter.
Maine always gets weird in the 5th or 6th regardless of the pitch count its like he expects to be done- muscle memory from the way minors treat pitchers now
It felt good to see him K DeWitt. I really dislike that guy
Maine should be allowed to go 8 here. If he pulls him at the 90 something pitc mark before 7 Im gonna go ballistic.
Ed: He's a typical Mets starter. It's probably some sort of teaching from Jacket.
That said, he's gotta be given every chance to go at least 8 here.
We've secretly replaced the coffee in the Met clubhouse with a special batch brewed by Andy Pettitte's dad…
Lastings who?
12 runs means the first CG by a Met in recent memory.
Maine has to go 8? How about going for the gusto…a complete game! We haven't had one of them thar things in a while…
They could have used some of this yesterday. They only needed 2 more to win. They are not allocating their runs properly.
How that guy didnt drop his baby is beyond me.
Nice grab though
The guy who caught the HR needs to check his priorities in life.
Only 72 pitches for John.
If he keeps it up, he's got a shot at the CG
Coop, I'm trying to be realistic. 8 is like an accomplishment enough for a Mets starter. AT LEAST 8 would be awesome…here comes a shot at 7 now.
it's Chan "I wanna be a" Ho Park!
Have they done this phone call thing before??
I almost feel like I do when a no-hitter is unfolding before me, watching Maine in his quest for the uncharted territory of the 8th inning!
LMAO @ RMKMets – you are right. Seriously, who last pitched one for the Mets? was it in 2005?
Its a bird, its a plane its JOHN MAINE
With this onus that Minaya started on bringing in Dinosuars to start (with the goal just go thru 6 and hand it over to the pen) I'm sure you can count on one hand the number of CGs during his reign.
Why is a complete game such a big deal? They have a 12 run lead. It would be a nice anomaly but really its not important at all to get a complete game. In general I don't think its important for starting pitchers to throw complete games. By the way I think pitch counts are smart and more pitchers were ruined by being overpitched, contrary to what a lot of broadcasters say about 'the good old days'.
This is the kind of performances Maine was having during the Spring It's good to see he's finally showing some of it off in the regular season. Hopefully he can do this next time out too…I dont want this to be a onetime thing
12-0 Mets in the seventh..it is nice to win a laugher once in a while!
http://www.myteamrivals.typepad.com/mr_mets_daily
RMKMets—
You mean Los Dinosaurios
Maine had a CG in 07 and 06. NOT uncharted territory.
Coop—
I think the last Mets complete game was Jerry Koosman in 1970.
Dave: I'm talking about uncharted territory for Mets starters in general. Not specficically for him. The Mets are the only team in the league right now that hasn't had a starter go more than 7 this season
Hey where has Keith been during this roadtrip? Vacation?
The Mets bench should be on the top step ready to storm the field and lift Maine up in celebration if he gets this 3rd out!
RMKMets yes. I know. That is what is wrong with this team. Johan maxes at 7 everyone else at 6 or 5. The pen is spent and we have a weak offense.
OH MY GOD! I DON'T BELIEVE IT! A METS STARTER HAS GONE 8 INNINGS!!!! INCREDIBLE!
I smell a complete game…
Small steps people, small steps. First a complete game…then a no-hitter. THEN a perfect game. All this season! w00t!
Last CG by Maine last year was against the Nats and that was a rain shortened game. Before that he had a full CG the year before
That was a bad job by Church. That was his all the way…he should have called Castillo off
Looks like Maine is losing it. He's been way out of the zone with those pitches
Thx RMK Mets – I did say that ultimately John Maine would be the ace of the staff this year. Johan will be Johan – Johnny will be better. Mark my words. Coop has spoken
Both Maine and Tom Glavine had rain-shortened complete games last season.-JD
The shutout is the big thing. Once he lost that, the complete game really didn't matter anymore.-JD
He threw 117 pitches. That's a pretty heavy load. We need to save him for the long haul. Not to protect a 12 run lead.
still considering that it usually takes around 117 pitches to get through 6 innings for our pitchers, that is amazing.
It's great. He was great today.
That's 6 consecutive starts in which John has allowed 2 runs or less.
If you take away the opening game in Atlanta, he's 4-1 with a 2.37 ERA.
I disagree. If I can stay up I'll watch the rerun, but considering how sucky the pitching is so far he should have been allowed a CG.
It used to be that when you hit the wall you are left in to climb the wall.
Darling tells a story about how he sucked one day and the manager came out. He thought he was being taken out. The coach told him he is staying in and will learn to get guys out if it takes all day. It makes you a better pitcher.
You have a 12 run lead. You're not going to lose the game. It would have been good for him to get a CG when he seemed to be pitching so well.
The whole point at the end of the day is not how many CG's you get ( although it is nice ), or even saving the pen. As a pitcher, a player or any activity you learn by struggling. You do not learn when things are easy. At the end of the day Maine or anyone benefits from learning to do something they haven't done before or have little success with.
For a pitcher, you become a pitcher when you can keep going when you are tired or you don't have your stuff.
Tom Glavine did not win 300 games because he quit when he didn't have his stuff or was tired.
The great ones succeed because they have the will. I think JM can be very good, but he needs to try to get there.
Dave
When do the apologies to Ryan Church start?
Great game by Maine. To the roster moves upcoming, I would put Wise in place of Sosa, and move Sosa out or into the rotation in favor of Figueroa. I know it's only one really bad start, but I've seen it before; hitters are probably catching onto him again now, and although it's a great story, there's a reason he has bounced around so much. Castro would have to replace Casanova, despite what the latter has done for us, but that might be moot for awhile if Pagan has to be put on the DL.
Dave:
117 pitches is a lot for a guy who has been trained his entire career that he is going to be taken out at around 100.
Willie was going to leave him in for as long as he had the shutout. If he gave up a solo-homer to Andruw, Willie probably takes him out there anyway.
Besides, Sanchez needed the work. He hadn't pitched in 3 days, and everyone else in the pen gets 2 days off.
I dont like it. He should have gotten the complete game.
This tells the pitchers that you will not go 9 if you dont pitch perfect. which is unattainable.
I half wanted to boo willie for coming out. Let the kid finish.. GGRR
as it was Maine didnt know how many pitches he threw. he should have stayed in,..
Ryan Church is a scrub from a last-place team…He's a journeyman platoon player who can't hit LHP. Did I forget anything?
Tiffany well he's a damned good Met and thats all i care about.. He's proven himself so far…
Steve, I'm pretty sure Tiffany's being sarcastic. She's kinda mocking the person who did say that.
Before the season started, there were a lot of people here bashing the trade. Calling Church essentially garbage.
He's only been the most valuable position player so far this year.
So who did say that, Tiffany? Care to reveal who?
Only the shadow knows
Nice job by Maine. His long stint came in the nick of time, giving the bullpen a long rest with the day off tomorrow.
I think Pelfrey and Ollie need to make some visits to a good sports psychologist. They are both head cases and high maintenance.
Why are so many people complaining about Maine not finishing? He was clearly tiring, he had thrown 117 pitches, and had lost the shutout… Not much point in pushing your starter for a non-shutout CG when your leading by 11 runs… Regardless, he was outstanding and gave the team length, something they desperately needed….
BTW, Tiffany's clearly being sarcastic, why can't anyone realize this?
Sure, you can push starters today. But expect a few of them to come up with bum arms like Wood and Prior. Baker sure fixed them! Girardi and other managers in Florida have also abused their starters. Olson, Annibel Sanchez, Dempster, Burnett—many Marlins' starters have come up with career threatening injuries due to being pushed too hard by Girardi and other genius Marlins' managers.
It's notable that under Peterson, there have been so few serious pitching injuries. I think it's safe to assume that Zambrano, Pedro, and Burgos all had arm issues before they pitched for the Mets. So there's a lot to be said for Peterson's conservative approach to pitch counts.
well 3-3 road trip against 2 very good teams is fine.
Like to see Mets really beat up on Reds and Nats and not fall back into lack of focus, sleep walking mode. 5-2 homestand would be good.
People are complaining that Maine did not finish? Come on. Go find some other things to do w/yourself if you've got a problem w/Maine only going 8.1
I would take seven from Maine every time out and be happy.-JD
I just can't get upset with Maine not finishing tonight…great job pitching , and hitting by him. By the way, can he give Delgado lessons on how to hit with RISP???
http://www.myteamrivals.typepad.com/mr_mets_daily
OK
since you don't like my words and arguments for how it is good for the individual, think about this which i found on the mets yahoo page.
"Overall, Mets starters have failed to go at least six innings in 14 of 31 games.
The residual strain falls on the bullpen, which has already compiled 106 2/3 innings. That averages out to 3 1/3 innings a game and projects to 559 total for the season.
That’s roughly 62 full games, which means the ‘pen will be fried by September, just as it was last year."
For those who cry about saving the poor pitchers and how they are so delicate a light breeze will put them in the hospital I give you Tom Terrific.
He had double digit CG for 10 years with over 250 innings a year.
Baseball has been around for what 150 years? I realize that I am breaking new ground here and demanding that a pitcher actually finish a game that he started because well for 150 years very few pitchers are strong enough to do that.
Perhaps baseball can try something new and demand that their pitchers actually try to pitch more than half a game because well they are supposed to be athletes.
Now bear with me. Some people define an athlete as someone who is trained or gifted in contests involving physical activity involving stamina and strength.
But perhaps I am wrong and baseball players are in fact not athletes and neither are the pitchers.
Never mind.
Dave: I'm with you to a point. However, Maine was clearly losing it…his pitches were going out of the zone and they were hitting them pretty hard. Up to that point he'd put up a good game, and he'd throw 117 pitches, so there was no need to push him farther once the shutout was gone. Better to have him go out on a high note and with a lot of confidence. There'll be other times where he'll be able to push thru.
With regards to the stats you put up about the Mets pen and the number of outings. I agree with you that the Mets starters need to go more innings…their inability to do that has been driving me nuts! Still, in most of those cases, they didn't go longer because they were sucking it up and Willie had no choice. In the case of tonite, Sanchez was one of the few who hadn't pitched in a couple days, so the work wasn't going to hurt him, and if anything it would keep him sharp. Maine did his part though in allowing everyone else to stay rested.
I wish the author of these Ryan Church statements would have—in the immortal, eloquent words of esteemed sportswriter John Delcos—the stones to come forward and own up to them.
Tiffany, sorry i lost on the sarcasm bit ;-)
I agree with dave. Listen for all those years there was only one pitcher. bullpen what was that? you either pitched or you were on the bench.
I dont think Maine was losing it at all. A full outing would only boost is confidence and make him stronger. Many people forget, a starter was only pulled from a game not for his pitch count but he was sucking to the point of no return.
Otherwise they would be left in to pitch out of it…
Thats like taking the Quarterback out of a football game because he reached his limit on throws.
;-)
Steve C: No matter how much you or anyone stands on their heads, this is the 21st century…pitchers rarely complete games, pitchers go 7 if you're lucky. It's not like watching Seaver and Koosman pitching 10 innings if they have to. It's not like when you would look on the back of a baseball card and see 30 games started with 15 to 20 complete games. There is no way Willie was going to let him stay, especially after the shutout was gone. And it did nothing at all to shake Maine's confidences anyway.
Steve-O: one can hope. and i do think though it impacted Maine. he had a great outing and he should be happy with that i whole-heartedly agree. But i also feel he earned the completion. just because its the 21st century it doesnt mean its right ;-)
Lets hope he remains our Ace of diamonds.
Lets Go Mets !!
In 1971, Mickey Lolich threw 371 innings, including 29 complete games. He gave up 336 hits that year. Think about that.
My favorite Lolich stat, though, was that he drew 20 walks as a hitter in 1972. A pitcher drawing 20 walks. That's crazy.
Tiffany, back in the 60's and 70's pitchers werent the push overs they are today. They were very much part of the lineup. They were still the "easy out" but they wouldnt go out with a wimper like today..
unlike the kiddie ball of american league where someone has to swing the bat for the pitcher..
Do you know if Lolich is still running a donut chain in Michigan?-JD
My favorite Lolich stat was the fact when he came over from the Tigers he threw close to 200 innings and had an ERA of 3.22 and was considered a bust. Nowadays that is good for at least a 10 million dollar a year contract. And I'll still never get over that trade!!!
Lolich:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=lolicmi01
even more stats.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lolicmi01.shtml
I'll take a scrub like him any day ;-]
Tiffany my love please be kind to all little metsies even those than are pagans and hate the belovedchurchman, especially after the metsies did so well for one day.
PS: I said to myself after a 11 run win there couldn't possibly be any little metsies complaining could there?? And there were.. Little Metsies are the worst fans in the universe. Tiffany you are much too good to be a little metsie.
Well DC its a good thing that i am a Big Mets fan and not a little metsie.
because i stick with my team through thick and thin and thin…
even if i moved out of ny i would still be a mets fan. go figure..
I'm a poeth and I don't even knoweth.
Buck buck buck buck buck!
I am a big Mets fan although I hate so many Mets. I hate Carlos Delgado. I am a big Mets fan. I hate Oliver Perez. I am a big Mets fan. I hate Jose Reyes. I am a big Mets fan. I hate Carlos Beltran. I am a big Mets fan. I hate Willie Randolph. I am a big Mets fan. I am a big Mets fan…....
I only ever said i hated delgado. never said i hated abyon else on that list mr. hide behind other people's name,
grade school nonesense.
Like it mr poeth give it away? ... Truce?
RMKMets
I saw the repeat at night and they did not show enuf to say what Johnnie looked like. So I cannot argue on what he looked like.
I agree that the pitchers this year needed to be taken out because they had nothing.
This however is not because these guys are physically incapable. It is the expectations and how they are treated. In the spring they go 2 or 3 and then they are ready for the season.
In the minors they are not taught to go long. The way Darling and others describe it the daily training is way different.
For example, I heard someone say that pitchers are taught to throw 150 ft for long toss. They never used to do that. It was always the mound to the plate. Pitchers also seem to get hurt more which is probably a reflection of the new training methods and roids.
As they do with kids. If you expect the kid to fail they will. If you expect the pitcher to only go 5 they will.