If a pitcher aint doing it do it trot him out every day with a man on to give up runs?

SP only affects one game every 5. A position player can strike out and there are 8 others. If he plays his position he is contributing.

A relief pitcher who gives up hits with the game in the balance quickly piles up losses. Might as well leave the other guy in ( back to my point ), so why bother using them?

” I don’t care what ‘the game is today’. I am saying it is crap.”

“Pitchers do not go deep into the game and do not work the plate. They are taught wrong and handled wrong.”

“I understand you disagree. That is fine. I feel you are wrong on this matter.”

Here’s the funny thing. I DON’T disagree. I would love nothing more than to see our SP to go 7-9 innings per game, but it’s just not dealing in reality. So it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing… facts are facts. You can type until your fingers turn blue, but this is the trend and it’s not changing anytime soon. Teams want to protect their investment, so they are going to impose strict pitch counts.

As for the bullpen… you’re really a “what have you done for me lately” kind of guy, huh?

Hate to say it but you are wrong.

Santana is our best pitcher agreed. I know it is early, but it seems that he is running out of gas in the 6th. He has been described by many as the best or certainly top 3 in the game. For my money one of the best pitchers in the game needs to do 7-9.

Relievers – yesterday is yesterday just like Delgado. The two I mention at this point – and that is what we are discussing – are situational pitchers who have problems getting 3 outs. If your relievers only pitch to one or two batters at a time and your starters have a ceiling of 5 1/2 innings by the all star break your staff is crap. Just like last year.

By your metrics you will need a 40 man roster in the dugout with 25 of them being pitchers.

My main point being quality over quantity. I don’t care what ‘the game is today’. I am saying it is crap. I like a few here are saying that the pitchers need to be trained to pitch. That they need to discover the art of pitching and do the job they are paid to.

Pitchers do not go deep into the game and do not work the plate. They are taught wrong and handled wrong.

I understand you disagree. That is fine. I feel you are wrong on this matter.

Dave

This is going to come across as obnoxious, but it needs to be done.

You. Are. Wrong. Period.

“A starting pitcher is expected to go 7, if not a CG. Anything less is a marginal pitcher who deserves to be sent down.”

This may have been the case once upon a time, but not any more. ESPN.com put Roy Halladay on the front of their baseball section because he is a “throwback” who pitches deep into games. The way the game is played today, 6 innings is a “Quality Start” what you expect from your starter and anything else is gravy. This is a fact based both on observation and statistics.

We don’t really know what Feliciano or Smith can do because the only relievers who are allowed to pitch multiple innings seem to be Heilman and Sosa, who Willie uses almost everyday. All I know is the last 2 seasons Feliciano has been one of our best guys out of the pen. Right now, Smith is best suited as a situational guy. But he’s still young. He has a shot to improve and be a solid reliever.

As for Santana… what do you want the guy to do, make water into wine? Dude has a 2.91 ERA, averages a strikeout per inning, always goes up against the other team’s best starter (thus no run support), should probably be 5-2, and you’re still complaining? Admittedly, he hasn’t been lights out, but look at his stats! Watch him pitch! He is obviously not on his “A” game yet, but he is still better than 99% of the pitchers out there!

Geez, talk about a tough crowd!

A starting pitcher is expected to go 7, if not a CG. Anything less is a marginal pitcher who deserves to be sent down.

The only reason in todays game you need so many ‘quality’ – read situational crappy pitchers who you send out to face one batter – pitchers is because you have a pitch count of 90 pitches or 4 innings and you need all the high priced useless bodies to make it through a game.

I do not blame Willie for his handling of the pitching staff except if a pitcher is in the 6th and tiring with a 3 run lead he needs to stay in there until it goes down to one. A starter is supposed to suck it up and be a pitcher and use whatever he has to in order to get out of the inning. If that means chin music to set up an outside breaking ball or whatever you do what you need to do. Be a pitcher not a thrower.

I am not convinced.

Relievers in today’s game are for the most part a waste of space. Let me use our team as an example since I do not watch other teams.

Feliciano is considered a talented pitcher. However in the past week or so that I have seen he can pitch to at most 2 batters before he implodes. The same with Smith. These two were chosen because they are considered to be ‘not crappy’. Please explain to me how a situational pitcher who cannot be used for even one inning is not a complete waste of space. Our stopper and arguably the best of the bunch can barely do one inning.

I don’t care how many bodies are in the pen 5 or 20. If you can’t use them for at least an inning and your starters wear out after 5 your pitching sucks.

Santana at this point is a disappointment. He keeps you in games and keeps the run count to about 3 but he struggles to get past 6. Maine and Ollie barely hit 6 and they are the good ones unless you see that OP really can’t finish the 5th. I give Figeroa and Big Pelf a pass because you can’t expect anything from them, but they have been about as good as our 2/3 pitchers which isn’t saying much.

Going into the season our pitching was supposed to be the strength because the hitting was not strong enough to carry the team.

As I said in the offseason it was going to be a team of pitching and D. Well the pitching is straining and the D has been spotty.

We are our record which is a 500 team. A 500 team unless you are an eastern conference NBA team is not a playoff team.

Yes. This is a long season and there is time to get better, but this team has many questions and too few answers.

Dave

As for the ‘06 staff pitching longer into games, the key isn’t really the offense. Glavine and Pedro didn’t get especially high run support in April of that year. And this year, it’s not because of pinch hitters that Ollie and Pelfrey and to a lesser extent Figueroa are being taken out of games early. It’s because they reach high pitch counts early or they implode early (once with Ollie). They haven’t pitched economically, to say the least.

Both Smith and Feliciano had tired arms last year and had to be either demoted or rested because of it. Do you really want Willie to tax them more instead of Heilman and Sosa? Either way, someone gets taxed. The burden on the bullpen would remain the same. High.

The key is the offense. Without checking the game logs, I would assume the ‘06 rotation generally pitched with larger leads than the current rotation. I mean, Trachsel got 15 wins with a mid 4 ERA.

Further, we have 7 freaking guys in the bullpen. Maybe if Willie didn’t use Sosa and Heilman everyday, and let Feliciano and Smith go for longer than one batter per outing, the bullpen wouldn’t be as taxed.

This year’s staff so far is failing dismally in this regard compared to the ‘06 one. Only Santana is going 6 or more innings regularly. Maine somewhat. But apart from them, the other starters all leave by the 6th inning most of the time.

The bullpen is much more heavily taxed as a result. And the offense isn’t as good. Nor is the bullpen. So that’s why there is a big difference between ‘06 and now. It’s not as good a team overall. Now, if Pedro can come back and Ollie can turn himself around, then it’s a different story. But those are two big ifs.

keith and dave are 2 good metsies but dave is the best, tied with clm and Tiffany so keith stop pickin on little dave.. He’s a good guy…...

Now back to dave’s concern about the bullpen. dave is right. most of the relievers are crappy, not just metsie releivers. There are too many because the rich starting pitchers are pandered and pampered because they are rich and no body wants to buy more of them then they have to….

now back to the new park.. why is it that only the rich suits should be allowed to attend the new ebbets field? somebody explain the elitism

Guys aren’t in the bullpen b/c their crappy. It’s because they don’t have the repertoire to be starters, as you mentioned. This doesn’t make them crappy, just limited. So they are placed in a role where they will perform well, the bullpen.

And outside Heilman and Sosa, who in the pen has pitched lousy this season? Sure, each guy has has his hiccups, but nothing egregious like Sosa and Heilman.

As for the bullpen being gassed, it has more to do with playing a couple extra inning games and Perez getting rocked in his last start than with Johan and Maine only going 6 innings each.

I thought I explained why you shouldn’t expect more than 6-7 innings from your SP. A lot of it has nothing to do with the pitcher’s performance. How many games has a manager (not just Willie, but many managers do this) pulled a starter after 6 because of the holy pitch count? These days, once a guy throws 100 pitches, you know it will be exit stage left before long. And that has little/nothing to do with the pitchers themselves.

Also, remember we play in the NL, where pitchers hit. If it is a close game the pitcher is going to be pinch hit for around the 6th inning. So there is another reason why a pitcher may not go more than 6.

Granted, Ollie has not pitched well enough to get through 5, let alone 6 innings, but there have been starts where I wished Willie would have left in Maine and Santana to get through 7.

So, in short, there are a wide range of reasons why you shouldn’t expect pitchers to last more than 6 innings, with many of them having nothing to do with actual performance. The mistake many of you are making is equating the number of innings a pitcher throws in a game with his actual performance. It’s just not that simple.

Anyway, this is the same exact formula they used in ‘06 and I don’t remember hearing any of this. The starters (Glavine, Duque, Pedro, Trax, Pelfrey, Maine, Perez, etc.) would go 6, then hand the game over to the pen.

And no, contending teams cannot have a crappy pitching staff, but we don’t have a crappy pitching staff. I am not prepared to call a staff that many considered one of the best in the NL (if not the league) crappy after a month of baseball. Johan will dominate down the stretch, as is his MO, and Maine and Perez will rebound. The league has adjusted to these guys after their success last year, and now they’re making their own adjustments. These guys are too talented to not rebound. IMO, Figueroa and Pelfrey are solid 4 & 5 starters.

Anyway, I’m not looking to win 100 games. I just want this team to make the playoffs. I believe that this will be a dangerous team in a short series.

One last note. After last season I would think Mets fans would rather see a second half surge after a first half of treading water while the team gels and finds it’s groove.

Why is it unrealistic to expect your SP to go more than 6 innings if we are talking your top 3? You burn out your pen which is composed of substandard pitchers who are in the pen precisely because they have maybe one pitch and by the 3rd inning the other team has adjusted and crushes them.

Look at our team. The impression I get is that our pen is considered at least good. And yet with the exception of a handful of pitchers they are not very good and we just finished April and they appeared gassed last week.

So please explain to me how a contending team can have a crappy pitching staff.

Dave, my post has nothing to do with how good or bad pitching is around the league. It just shows how the IP/game of a SP has been in steady decline. There are a lot of reasons for this. Sure, the quality of pitching may be worse, but MLB also lowered the mound, teams adhere to strict pitch counts, and managers play the matchup game with their BP more.

So my ultimate point was that while we’re complaining about how long our starters go, it’s kind of pointless to complain because this is the trend baseball is following. Yes, only going 5 innings is unacceptable, but it is also unrealistic to expect your SPs to go more than 6 – 7 innings tops. This is just the way the game is now.

Thanks

At this rate OP won’t get much.