Willie: “No gag order” on The Jacket.
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- May
- 4
Willie Randolph said there’s not a gag order on pitching coach Rick Peterson talking with the media.
Nonetheless, The Jacket answers every question with instructions to ask public relations. PR guru Jay Horwitz said there is “no edict” for Peterson not to talk. However, The Jacket is the only uniformed member of the organization who demands interviewers to get permission.
My conclusion is somebody isn’t telling the truth. Either Willie resents him talking, which became an issue last year when we tried to talk to Peterson about the rotation, or Peterson has “misremembered’’ and is using it as an excuse not to talk.
The fact is when it comes to their pitching the Mets have more issues than five years of Time magazine and that’s Peterson’s responsibility.
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on Sunday, May 4th, 2008 at 3:11 pm by John Delcos.
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Brian Schneider would make a great pitching coach!
is the mets pitching really that bad? I just looked up their team era and it seems to be ok, now I know there’s problems with the bullpen, so sure, if you are comparing this team to be a “great” team, its not, but when you stack it up against the competition, i’d say we’re doing alright for ourselves, but hey, thats just me. Delcos, apparently thinks they have end of the world serious issues with the pitching, but hey, thats his opinion too. Either way, Peterson can only do so much, its not like a pitching coach can always turn a guy into a good pitcher. In the end, the starters need to go deeper into games, bottom line. Pelfrey can’t be throwing 100+ pitches in 5 innings. Guy is so frustrating to watch sometimes. Really has talent, but just hasn’t put it together. You’d like it to happen quicker, but for some guys it takes time, and maybe his movement is just that good, he can’t control it. Either way, i’d be nice for him to get it together.
This is heady stuff. You oughta call the Public Relations Society of America (PRSA) and lodge a formal complaint.
I think JD’s right, someone’s not telling the truth here. All during last season’s collapse I wanted to hear more from Jacket than Willie on the pitching. Willie always gives the stock/stale answers. Not that Jacket wouldn’t also mouth the party line, but he’s the pitching coach and knows his guys better than Willie. I think in a good conversation you’d get some candid answers from Jacket.
Mets pitching:
-Oliver Perez runs hot and cold. Flip a coin whenever he starts.
-Mike Pelfrey has given it up three starts in a row and can’t find homeplate with a GPS system.
-Aaron Heilman has inspired no confidence. Ditto for Jorge Sosa.
-Starters Pedro Martinez and Orlando Hernandez are on the DL.
Yeah, the Mets’ pitching has problems. If you don’t think so, then you don’t know what you’re watching.-JD
I don’t think the pitching problems are at issue here; rather, it’s what The Jacket has to gain by discussing them with the media.
If, say, Aaron Heilman has a damaged psyche, what good would it do The Jacket—and, by extension, the organization—to talk to a reporter about it? If, say, Pelfrey is tipping his pitches, would it help the pitcher to have his pitching coach relay this issue to the Journal News?
Wasn’t it the Tuna who, while with the Giants, instituted the policy by which none of his assistant coaches were allowed to speak to the media? Admittedly, it’s a little Orwellian, but it does raise the greater question as to what good can come out of such a conversation.
Can’t put Petey’s and Duque’s health on Jacket. They are old dudes and came into the organization set in their ways. Jacket has kept the young guys healthy. Physically, anyway. Mentally, some of them are basket cases. Of course the booing can’t help. Maybe we just drafted and traded for guys who happen to not be mentally tough?
But great staff or struggling staff, the media should have access to the pitching coach. Who’s usually at the post-game press conference, JD?
To RG: You can’t put the health issues of Martinez and Hernandez on Peterson. Nobody is. However, the guys expected to pick up for them haven’t performed and that falls on him.
To Tiffany: I would think as a fan of the team you would want to know what’s going on. Why can’t Pelfrey throw a strike? Why can’t Perez give them innings? Why is Heilman a basket case? Peterson might know the answers to these questions. Personally, I have no use for coaches and managers who won’t talk about their performances. In answer to your questions, what good does it do NOT to talk about it.
You’re right about Parcells. When I was covering the Browns he once kicked me out of a practice. He’s such a phony. He has nothing to do with the media, then when he’s out of work he takes a job in the media. Of course, that’s the TV networks, but they don’t care about integrity, either.
The bottom line is if you want answers you have to ask questions. And, answering questions comes with the job. If you’re afraid to answer because your skin is too thin, then get a real job.-JD
Delcos, we have problems, i admitted that, all i’m doing is comparing our situation to the competition, and frankly, we’re not THAT bad off. You’re making it out like our pitching sucks, its got problems, but we don’t suck, sorry.
But why is The Jacket reluctant to answer the questions: Is it because he is thin skinned or because he’s protecting his players?
Personally, I can see a lot of good in not talking about the problems with the media. Such an approach provides him the cover to address the issues and, hopefully, make the proper adjustments in private. I don’t see how it helps Peterson to tell you—on the record—that Player X is a basketcase or has a drug problem or misses his old girlfriend. That would be hanging the player out to dry and it probably wouldn’t help the team address the given issue.
I think it comes down to whether he should simply decline the interview or, instead, provide you with a series of Art Howe Bullshit Answers™ like, “We’re really battling out there” and “Gosh, I wish I knew what was wrong.” Which would you prefer?
I’ve been wondering on mu blog (click on my name) why the media and fans haven’t been putting more heat on Peterson.
JD lists some very pertinent questions about the staff but I think there is one more:
Does Peterson support Willie’s quick yanks of starters and overuse of the bullpen? If not, why can’t he get Willie to stop?
Tiffany: I prefer the truth, which is what I’ve gotten in the past. If he doesn’t want to talk, say so. Don’t make something up. As far as stock answers are concerned, I can figure out bullshit when I see it and write around it.-JD
“I’m sick and tired of hearing things from uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics…all I want is the truth…just gimme some truth.”—John Lennon
Metsfan: Aside from Santana, and maybe Wagner/Sanchez, yes this pitching staff DOES suck. Tell me the last time one of these starters has gone at least 7 innings? Santana was probably the last one and that was over 2 wks ago. The pitching is a major issue, and I think Peterson should at least face the music and talk about it rather than trying to hide like a weasel
I have news for you Tiffany, Willie gives more than his fair share of BS answers. He is rarely forthcoming to the media about anything.
The only difference between Willie & Howe (with the Mets) is that Willie was blessed with a better roster.
and maybe WAgner….? maybe wagner doesn’t suck? what in god’s name are you talking about? you’re hesitant to include wagner in a group of pitchers that you deem to not suck? i know its sad that we don’t have 8 cy young winners on our team, but comparing to other teams in our division, i think our pitching is alright, not great, but ok at this point.
19676.536.23
19776.176.46
19876.056.20
19976.096.00
20075.755.92
Left column is the NL. Right column is the AL. The numbers? Average IP per start for SP.
So for all of you going crazy about how our pitchers only go 6 and suck because of it… this is hardly unique to the Mets.
That didn’t format well. Here’s the NL
1967: 6.53
1977: 6.17
1987: 6.05
1997: 6.09
2007: 5.75
AL:
1967: 6.23
1977: 6.46
1987: 6.20
1997: 6.00
2007: 5.92
Fight metsies fight….. Lets see, you don’t like most of the players, you don’t like the manager, you don’t like pitcing coach….. Tell me again, why are any of you metsie fans?????? I think you little metsies hate the big metsies more than Americans hate Al Quaeda….....!
PS: We won again… slowly but surely we are getting better and we will have a winning record and we will be ahead of all the teams in the NL EAST except the Phillies.
What a bunch of idiots these guys are, namely Schneider. He emphatically calls for the ball then just suddenly gives way to Wright so the ball can get dropped. I dont care if the guy has been out, that’s a fundamental play.
Santana needs an efficient inning here and Willie needs to give him a shot to go 7 before he opens the flood gates and uses 6 pitchers to finish out the remaining 3 innings.
What happened to the days when starters would pitch as many as 120-130 pitches?? This practice of removing pitchers after the 100 pitch mark is a little much at times
To Keith: Just because most every other staff doesn’t go long in games is that any reason to accept the same from the Mets? If you are, you are accepting mediocrity. Who wants that?-JD
its the fact that the Mets aren’t really doing worse then other teams, yet some people paint the Mets as being horrible at going deep into games, or having really bad pitching. We all want better and know they’re capable of better, but its the knee jerk reactionary commentary that upsets some. The Mets pitching is not that bad off.
JD: I don’t understand how the duration of a pitcher’s time on the hill defines how effective he was. This is the way the game is going. Starters just don’t last as long. Tim Lincecum is considered the best young pitcher in the NL. Dude rarely goes more than 6, if ever.
It’s not about accepting mediocrity, but accepting a fact. Complaining about how long our starters go is a futile exercise. In the modern game, managers go to the bullpen earlier, especially in the NL where the pitcher hits. And especially on a team that isn’t exactly scoring a ton of runs, which makes a PH all the more likely.
Again, I restate my initial statement in the form of a question. What does the duration of a pitcher’s outing have to do with his effectiveness?
You keep drinking the Kool-Aid if you don’t think the Mets don’t have pitching problems.-JD
Keith: C’mon, think about it. It stands to reason that the longer the pitcher stays in the game the better he’s doing. I would think Oliver Perez going 1 2/3 innings the other day would nail that point home.-JD
Today it isn’t the pitching, the Mets have three hits in 8 innings, that tells it all.
JD: Length of a pitcher’s outing is not definitively dispositive of his performance.
Yes, when a pitcher only lasts 1.2 innings then you know it was likely a rough night. However, in this case, the duration doesn’t necessarily mean he stunk either. It could have been an injury, or a rainout, etc.
And take Ollie’s other starts. Sure, you’d like to see him go at least 6, but the guy throws a lot of pitches, and in his early starts, he was putting 0’s up on the board. To me, while not a “great” outing, it was certainly “effective.” I’d rather have 5 innings of 0 runs from Ollie than 7 innings of 4-5 runs from a guy like Suppan. Especially with this offense.
Also, the point of my last post was to show that this is a trend throughout baseball, and it has more to do with pitch counts and the way pitcher’s are developed than is being acknowledged in this thread.
Ultimately, my point is that you guys have set your benchmark for a starter at 7-8 (possibly 9 for some) innings, when a QS is only 6 innings, and SPs averaged less than that last year.
Plus, this is how Maine and Perez pitched all last season. They only went 5-6 innings per night. This is the reason why we have a small army in the bullpen. I’m not putting up a fight that they shouldn’t be going deeper so much as I am pointing out that A) this is a trend throughout baseball and B) it is a waste of time to get all riled up because these guys don’t go 6-7 innings every start.
It’s like getting pissed off b/c the sun set in the west. At this point, it’s fairly safe to say this is what Perez and Maine are. Although I do hold out hope Maine can give us more innings on a consistent basis.
The real story is why Santana isn’t going longer. The Twins very rarely let him throw more than 110 pitches, yet that was taking him much farther than what we’ve seen this year. He’s certainly not being economical, which is something of a surprise for those who thought moving to the NL would be a cakewalk for him.
all anyone has to know about Peterson is the last 2 games of last yr.
Maine goes out and throws a gem and peterson is right there to talk to the press.
Glavine has a stinker and he is no where to be found.
There is a whole lot of whining in this discussion, and most of it has no merit.
Aww, Peterson isn’t answering your questions. Poor baby.
As for the Mets “pitching woes.” Look around the league and get back to me about how bad the Mets’ pitching is.
Aww, Santana only went 6 innings while giving up 1 run and striking out 8. I demand MORE!!! Aside from the fact that he historically starts off slow…
Just a whole lot of whining and leaping to conclusions from small sample sizes.
JD:
Oliver wants to pitch his way not the jacket’s way. when he pitches the jackets way he does fine. then he goes back to bad habits and falls apart. He doesnt want to believe that without coaching he;s nothing.
Pelfrey is young and he’s nervous. He isnt doing too shabby compared to the Veterans.
Everyone agrees the bullpen is overused. It should be used when you are losing 7-0 in the 3rd.
But it shouldnt even be a thought when you are wining 5-2 in the 6th or 7th. let him pitch ,regardless of the pitcher…
Just the other day there was a complete game finally.
To baby: He’s not answering your questions, either.
If you don’t understand what that means, you just don’t get it.-JD
JD: Question….are you blaming RP for the state of the pitching staff?
JD: Nevermind, I just read your article. Please tell me you’re not blaming him for a journeyman like Jorge Sosa.. please tell me that. With the exception of his first start, Maine has been very consistent. So what if he’s mainly gone 6 innings? The last two starts Johan barely made it thru 6. Joe Smith has been a much better pitcher than when he left the Mets last year. Is it RP’s fault if Heilman is a head case now? You want to blame him for Oliver Perez and Pelfrey, well I kinda get it…but maybe those two guys are what they are. Maybe Pelfrey is overrated because he was a high pick. He was never great in the minor leagues for the Mets either. And maybe OP is just an inconsistent pitcher.
This is an interesting thread.
I understand JD’s point. After all he is a reporter. Hello?!
As for pitchers and how they pitch. Saying that the league pitching sucks is not an excuse for your pitching sucking. After all as your parents would say, “If your friends jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you?”.
Our pitching is about average I would say. But it is weak.
We were supposed to have a rotation of Johan, Pedro, John, Ollie, Pelf. Instead we have Johan, Ollie, John, Pelf, Nelson. We are a 500 club for the most part because of pitching both starting and relief. Our relief is burnt out because our great starting pitchers cant go 5 innings. If one of these guys goes down who is the replacement in the minors ready to step in? I didn’t think so.
Ollie can’t get out of the 6th and some here was saying he was the #2 on this staff. Does that tell you something?
I will repeat what I have said before, a starter should go 7 at least. The fact that all the smart baseball people train the pitchers to go 3 innings is stupid. Why is it that all respected pitchers from previous generations pretty much say the same thing?
JD, It might be a nice research project to find out why baseball decided to go this way when many people who do not make these decisions seem to think there is something wrong here.
If you listen to our own broadcasts, our own pitching baseball analyst makes comments like these all the time. Although he is a bit nicer about it.
Dave
Gosh, the Mets don’t get off to a flying start and everyone starts freaking out. Relax. Yes, I agree Soul Glo Peterson should be out there taking questions but to touch on what someone else said above, what good would it do? He would just give the same old canned responses that Wills gives. If he’s out there talking to Pelf, Pea and Maine before and after the games, what good would it do to air it out to the press (Yes, JD, I recognize you are the “press” but deal – he won’t talk!)
I do agree, however, that RP is willing to take all the credit, none of the blame for the woes of the staff. But relax folks it’s still somewhat early. I’m more concerned with the sleeping offense of this team than the pitching staff. Johan historically has slower starts to the season, so come back to me on June 1. Maine showed us what he is made of and please – you people act like you didn’t see Oh Pea pitch at ALL in 2007. Hello, we had two aces – not one, TWO – in 2007 and everyone is willing to throw Peterson under the bus because of it. After all, he was CRUCIFIED by the “fix hiim 10 minutes” comment which as all parties have attested was blown waaaaay out of proportion. No wonder he wants to keep his mouth shut!
How quickly we forget that prior to winning 15 games and being in the top 5 in ERA in the NL last year, Oh Pea was in the MINORS of the Bucs system and John Maine was all but thrown away by the O’s and also had similar stats. Who do they credit? Rick Peterson.
I also agree that Oh Pea will have a test out there tonight, but we all know he has his scatterbrain moments. No excuse for it, that’s just him. The more I write about it, the more I think you guys never watched him pitch at all last year!! How many times did he become unraveled. No one can save him once that happens, not even God, I tell ya.
Take valiums peeps. The pitching aint the problem. When you have to score runs on a defensive error by the other team, I’m more concerned about that.
Rick – I remember last year there were questions about Willie and his understanding of pitching considering his coach’s rep. Perhaps Peterson delaying like he does is a way to more firmly establish the boss?
They went to this pitch count and coddling to supposedly not blow out the starter’s arm but its ok to blowout your pen.
;-)
I want baseball back to the way it was.. its gotten to HIGH tech if you ask me.
Maybe Peterson and Willie are barley talking.
Their was a rumor floated that Peterson was almost fired over the winter. Is it possible Willie wanted him fired ?
It is also possible Peterson has been told they value him so
much. That he would be kept on if Willie gets replaced as long as he keeps his mouth shut.
talking Barley? mmm over beer?
;-)
I doubt Willie. more like Omar. I said it once and got yelled at but i will say it again. The preponderance of Omar’s personal choices aren’t American. I will leave it at that,, because hey i could be wrong… it happens from time to time ;-)
According to Hubbuch at the Post, Jacket has been muzzled since spring training. I can’t remember any incident back then when he stepped out of line or what. Sounds like Omar and Willie are worried that he will say something out-of-line. Like a political party they want everyone to stay on message.
So it’s not like Jacket is just dissing JD, which is what I thought at first. It’s got to be a strange situation, and maybe it is stressing out guys like Maine and Ollie who have blossomed with Jacket.
Whatever the case, it makes JD’s job hard when key figures in the organization can’t or maybe won’t speak freely. And it’s got to be hard for Jacket knowing that he has to get Horwitz’s permission to speak with the press.
Most likely Peterson wont mince words. and Omar likes to be tight lipped about the ball club’s issues. Willie dances around as well. I miss the days when managers or coaches would just say, yeah my guy sucked today we’ll get him on target for the next time.
everything is so PC. bruised EGOs etc etc ..
I do remember one spring training incident.
Just before OP had his arbitration hearing he stated that
Peterson had not been of any help to him.
Steve
I do not understand your comment about the preponderance of his choices are not American.
Do you mean North American ?
The last time I checked my map I believe Puerto Rico , The Dominican Republic , Mexico and Venezuela are all part of the America’s.
Therefore all of the players on the Mets are Americans.
They said that? Who is OP’s rep? I guess it is a bargaining thing to get more money.
Dave – Oh Pea’s rep = Boras. Nuff said. I have to think that his mental game is off b/c he’s performing for the highest bidder. Rumor has it he doesn’t like playing in NY and would rather play in warmer climates closer to home, think: San Diego or Texas somewhere.
At the rate Perez is going he will join Jeff Weaver and Kyle Lohse as Boras clients who have been done more harm by Boras than being helped by his representation.
Coop.
Thanks
At this rate OP won’t get much.
I have an idea, let’s get 13 awesome pitchers like that other team in major league baseball that has that….. Oh, wait
“As for pitchers and how they pitch. Saying that the league pitching sucks is not an excuse for your pitching sucking. After all as your parents would say, “If your friends jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you?”.”
Dave, my post has nothing to do with how good or bad pitching is around the league. It just shows how the IP/game of a SP has been in steady decline. There are a lot of reasons for this. Sure, the quality of pitching may be worse, but MLB also lowered the mound, teams adhere to strict pitch counts, and managers play the matchup game with their BP more.
So my ultimate point was that while we’re complaining about how long our starters go, it’s kind of pointless to complain because this is the trend baseball is following. Yes, only going 5 innings is unacceptable, but it is also unrealistic to expect your SPs to go more than 6 – 7 innings tops. This is just the way the game is now.
Keith,
Why is it unrealistic to expect your SP to go more than 6 innings if we are talking your top 3? You burn out your pen which is composed of substandard pitchers who are in the pen precisely because they have maybe one pitch and by the 3rd inning the other team has adjusted and crushes them.
Look at our team. The impression I get is that our pen is considered at least good. And yet with the exception of a handful of pitchers they are not very good and we just finished April and they appeared gassed last week.
So please explain to me how a contending team can have a crappy pitching staff.
Dave, you’re kind of all over the place here, so I’ll do the best I can.
Guys aren’t in the bullpen b/c their crappy. It’s because they don’t have the repertoire to be starters, as you mentioned. This doesn’t make them crappy, just limited. So they are placed in a role where they will perform well, the bullpen.
And outside Heilman and Sosa, who in the pen has pitched lousy this season? Sure, each guy has has his hiccups, but nothing egregious like Sosa and Heilman.
As for the bullpen being gassed, it has more to do with playing a couple extra inning games and Perez getting rocked in his last start than with Johan and Maine only going 6 innings each.
I thought I explained why you shouldn’t expect more than 6-7 innings from your SP. A lot of it has nothing to do with the pitcher’s performance. How many games has a manager (not just Willie, but many managers do this) pulled a starter after 6 because of the holy pitch count? These days, once a guy throws 100 pitches, you know it will be exit stage left before long. And that has little/nothing to do with the pitchers themselves.
Also, remember we play in the NL, where pitchers hit. If it is a close game the pitcher is going to be pinch hit for around the 6th inning. So there is another reason why a pitcher may not go more than 6.
Granted, Ollie has not pitched well enough to get through 5, let alone 6 innings, but there have been starts where I wished Willie would have left in Maine and Santana to get through 7.
So, in short, there are a wide range of reasons why you shouldn’t expect pitchers to last more than 6 innings, with many of them having nothing to do with actual performance. The mistake many of you are making is equating the number of innings a pitcher throws in a game with his actual performance. It’s just not that simple.
Anyway, this is the same exact formula they used in ‘06 and I don’t remember hearing any of this. The starters (Glavine, Duque, Pedro, Trax, Pelfrey, Maine, Perez, etc.) would go 6, then hand the game over to the pen.
And no, contending teams cannot have a crappy pitching staff, but we don’t have a crappy pitching staff. I am not prepared to call a staff that many considered one of the best in the NL (if not the league) crappy after a month of baseball. Johan will dominate down the stretch, as is his MO, and Maine and Perez will rebound. The league has adjusted to these guys after their success last year, and now they’re making their own adjustments. These guys are too talented to not rebound. IMO, Figueroa and Pelfrey are solid 4 & 5 starters.
Anyway, I’m not looking to win 100 games. I just want this team to make the playoffs. I believe that this will be a dangerous team in a short series.
One last note. After last season I would think Mets fans would rather see a second half surge after a first half of treading water while the team gels and finds it’s groove.
keith do you agreew with JK that you should only be allowed to go to a game in citi field if you wear a suit????
Isn’t that kinda against the law or something? Do you think after this new metsie law is enacted that they will make the big metsies wear suits as well?
Now back to dave’s concern about the bullpen. dave is right. most of the relievers are crappy, not just metsie releivers. There are too many because the rich starting pitchers are pandered and pampered because they are rich and no body wants to buy more of them then they have to….
now back to the new park.. why is it that only the rich suits should be allowed to attend the new ebbets field? somebody explain the elitism
Because a bank now owns it.
Keith, it’s a little different right now. Same formula, different starters, with different results. In 2006, Glavine, El Duque, Pedro and Trax went 6 more often than not. They were the mainstays in the rotation early that year. So the bullpen didn’t get as stressed as has been early this year. The bullpen then was also stronger than it is this year. So they could use less arms to get more outs.
Pelfrey and Ollie haven’t been giving them the innings they need and this has been a weakness. I expected more out of Ollie this year, both in terms of quality and quantity. Hopefully he improves going forward. If not, the Mets could continue to plod along at around .500 all year.
JK, that was my point. The starters that year only went 6 innings per start. It’s not like they were going 6+, which is what it seems like some around here are expecting out of our pitchers. However, while that staff was better suited for regular season dominance, I think our current staff is better suited to succeed in the post season.
“In 2006, Glavine, El Duque, Pedro and Trax went 6 more often than not. They were the mainstays in the rotation early that year..”
especially El Duque who wasn’t even on the big metsie team at the beginning of the year. Loosen you tie Mr I only want the suits to be allowed to go to metsie games in the new parking lot dump….. did you apologize to all our brave women and men yet?????
keith and dave are 2 good metsies but dave is the best, tied with clm and Tiffany so keith stop pickin on little dave.. He’s a good guy…...
Actually, Keith, look at the game logs for Pedro, Trax and Glavine from ‘06. In the first half of the year, they were regularly going 6, 7, innings almost every start. They were averaging over 6 innings a start.
This year’s staff so far is failing dismally in this regard compared to the ‘06 one. Only Santana is going 6 or more innings regularly. Maine somewhat. But apart from them, the other starters all leave by the 6th inning most of the time.
The bullpen is much more heavily taxed as a result. And the offense isn’t as good. Nor is the bullpen. So that’s why there is a big difference between ‘06 and now. It’s not as good a team overall. Now, if Pedro can come back and Ollie can turn himself around, then it’s a different story. But those are two big ifs.
I don’t think Ollie turning himself around is a “big” if. Pedro… that’s another story.
The key is the offense. Without checking the game logs, I would assume the ‘06 rotation generally pitched with larger leads than the current rotation. I mean, Trachsel got 15 wins with a mid 4 ERA.
Further, we have 7 freaking guys in the bullpen. Maybe if Willie didn’t use Sosa and Heilman everyday, and let Feliciano and Smith go for longer than one batter per outing, the bullpen wouldn’t be as taxed.
Keith, I’d like to share your optimism on Ollie. Really. But I can’t. I think last year might have been a career year for him. It may never be as good as that for him again. I hope I’m wrong.
As for the ‘06 staff pitching longer into games, the key isn’t really the offense. Glavine and Pedro didn’t get especially high run support in April of that year. And this year, it’s not because of pinch hitters that Ollie and Pelfrey and to a lesser extent Figueroa are being taken out of games early. It’s because they reach high pitch counts early or they implode early (once with Ollie). They haven’t pitched economically, to say the least.
Both Smith and Feliciano had tired arms last year and had to be either demoted or rested because of it. Do you really want Willie to tax them more instead of Heilman and Sosa? Either way, someone gets taxed. The burden on the bullpen would remain the same. High.
Keith,
I am not convinced.
Relievers in today’s game are for the most part a waste of space. Let me use our team as an example since I do not watch other teams.
Feliciano is considered a talented pitcher. However in the past week or so that I have seen he can pitch to at most 2 batters before he implodes. The same with Smith. These two were chosen because they are considered to be ‘not crappy’. Please explain to me how a situational pitcher who cannot be used for even one inning is not a complete waste of space. Our stopper and arguably the best of the bunch can barely do one inning.
I don’t care how many bodies are in the pen 5 or 20. If you can’t use them for at least an inning and your starters wear out after 5 your pitching sucks.
Santana at this point is a disappointment. He keeps you in games and keeps the run count to about 3 but he struggles to get past 6. Maine and Ollie barely hit 6 and they are the good ones unless you see that OP really can’t finish the 5th. I give Figeroa and Big Pelf a pass because you can’t expect anything from them, but they have been about as good as our 2/3 pitchers which isn’t saying much.
Going into the season our pitching was supposed to be the strength because the hitting was not strong enough to carry the team.
As I said in the offseason it was going to be a team of pitching and D. Well the pitching is straining and the D has been spotty.
We are our record which is a 500 team. A 500 team unless you are an eastern conference NBA team is not a playoff team.
Yes. This is a long season and there is time to get better, but this team has many questions and too few answers.
Dave
I will say this again and will wear it out if I have to.
A starting pitcher is expected to go 7, if not a CG. Anything less is a marginal pitcher who deserves to be sent down.
The only reason in todays game you need so many ‘quality’ – read situational crappy pitchers who you send out to face one batter – pitchers is because you have a pitch count of 90 pitches or 4 innings and you need all the high priced useless bodies to make it through a game.
I do not blame Willie for his handling of the pitching staff except if a pitcher is in the 6th and tiring with a 3 run lead he needs to stay in there until it goes down to one. A starter is supposed to suck it up and be a pitcher and use whatever he has to in order to get out of the inning. If that means chin music to set up an outside breaking ball or whatever you do what you need to do. Be a pitcher not a thrower.
dave, That was very nice but nobody plays like that today…. h We love our team except of course metsie fans, but have tere been 10 complete games in all of the big leagues so far?
Whoa, boss took off his coat and tie. I guess being a metsie fan sucked so he came back from the evil fandom…..
Dave,
This is going to come across as obnoxious, but it needs to be done.
You. Are. Wrong. Period.
“A starting pitcher is expected to go 7, if not a CG. Anything less is a marginal pitcher who deserves to be sent down.”
This may have been the case once upon a time, but not any more. ESPN.com put Roy Halladay on the front of their baseball section because he is a “throwback” who pitches deep into games. The way the game is played today, 6 innings is a “Quality Start” what you expect from your starter and anything else is gravy. This is a fact based both on observation and statistics.
We don’t really know what Feliciano or Smith can do because the only relievers who are allowed to pitch multiple innings seem to be Heilman and Sosa, who Willie uses almost everyday. All I know is the last 2 seasons Feliciano has been one of our best guys out of the pen. Right now, Smith is best suited as a situational guy. But he’s still young. He has a shot to improve and be a solid reliever.
As for Santana… what do you want the guy to do, make water into wine? Dude has a 2.91 ERA, averages a strikeout per inning, always goes up against the other team’s best starter (thus no run support), should probably be 5-2, and you’re still complaining? Admittedly, he hasn’t been lights out, but look at his stats! Watch him pitch! He is obviously not on his “A” game yet, but he is still better than 99% of the pitchers out there!
Geez, talk about a tough crowd!
Keith,
Hate to say it but you are wrong.
Santana is our best pitcher agreed. I know it is early, but it seems that he is running out of gas in the 6th. He has been described by many as the best or certainly top 3 in the game. For my money one of the best pitchers in the game needs to do 7-9.
Relievers – yesterday is yesterday just like Delgado. The two I mention at this point – and that is what we are discussing – are situational pitchers who have problems getting 3 outs. If your relievers only pitch to one or two batters at a time and your starters have a ceiling of 5 1/2 innings by the all star break your staff is crap. Just like last year.
By your metrics you will need a 40 man roster in the dugout with 25 of them being pitchers.
My main point being quality over quantity. I don’t care what ‘the game is today’. I am saying it is crap. I like a few here are saying that the pitchers need to be trained to pitch. That they need to discover the art of pitching and do the job they are paid to.
Pitchers do not go deep into the game and do not work the plate. They are taught wrong and handled wrong.
I understand you disagree. That is fine. I feel you are wrong on this matter.
Dave
“For my money one of the best pitchers in the game needs to do 7-9.”
” I don’t care what ‘the game is today’. I am saying it is crap.”
“Pitchers do not go deep into the game and do not work the plate. They are taught wrong and handled wrong.”
“I understand you disagree. That is fine. I feel you are wrong on this matter.”
Here’s the funny thing. I DON’T disagree. I would love nothing more than to see our SP to go 7-9 innings per game, but it’s just not dealing in reality. So it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing… facts are facts. You can type until your fingers turn blue, but this is the trend and it’s not changing anytime soon. Teams want to protect their investment, so they are going to impose strict pitch counts.
As for the bullpen… you’re really a “what have you done for me lately” kind of guy, huh?
Bullpen – Yes.
If a pitcher aint doing it do it trot him out every day with a man on to give up runs?
SP only affects one game every 5. A position player can strike out and there are 8 others. If he plays his position he is contributing.
A relief pitcher who gives up hits with the game in the balance quickly piles up losses. Might as well leave the other guy in ( back to my point ), so why bother using them?