Mets Chat Room: In the desert edition.
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- May
- 2
The sluggish Mets ripped Arizona, the major league’s best team tonight. Closer Billy Wagner called out his team the other day by saying the Mets don’t match up with the Diamondbacks.
“I had nothing to do with this,” he said.
It all came together last night, even though John Maine has been sharper. For once, the offense carried the load and unlike Oliver Perez Wednesday against Pittsburgh, Maine found a way to go six.
IN A NUTSHELL, Mets 7, Arizona 2.
When Jose Reyes does well, so do the Mets. He had four hits and missed the cycle by a homer.
IN THE CLUBHOUSE
Moises Alou on returning to the line-up: “I felt good. I wasn’t as nervous as I thought I would be.”
Willie Randolph on Jose Reyes hitting the game’s first pitch for a triple: “We talked about that before the game, swinging at the first pitch if it was a good fastball.”
Ryan Church on the Mets being 6-0 when he hits second: “We’ll take it.” Well, maybe not. Randolph basically called it a coincidence.
IN-GAME ANALYSIS
1ST INNING: The offense gives John Maine three. Maine not sharp in the first, but unlike Oliver Perez, he doesn’t have a meltdown when David Wright’s error extends the inning. Mets 3, Arizona 0.
2nd INNING: Offense puts pressure on with another run, but Maine looks anything but sharp. Mets 4, Arizona 2.
3rd INNING: Nice inning by Maine. He needed a quick one.
6th INNING: Wright’s homer might have broken it open. Maine sucks it up for another inning. Mets 7, Arizona 2.
9th INNING: Duaner Sanchez finishes off the night.
Mets Chat Room is open all night. Tell us what you think, and I’ll talk with you tomorrow.
This entry was posted
on Friday, May 2nd, 2008 at 8:40 pm by John Delcos.
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Now that Alou's in the starting lineup tonight, what roster move did the Mets make? Any news on when Matt Wise will be activated?
Gustavo Molina was optioned to New Orleans.-JD
Good job by Church, exactly how you like to start a game.
Two batters in and already the Mets seem more animated. See the reception in the vistors' dugout for Mr. Church after the sac fly?
Yeah, what a tragedy that Angel Pagan has to sit.
Pretty generous scoring. They gave Alou a hit on that play. Either way, they are up 2-0.-JD
Omigod … did Delgado just single in a run?-JD
I hear a lets go Mets chant!
Moises is picking up right where he left off—hitting a bullet. And great to see Carlos Delgado getting into the act. And it sounds like there are a ton of Mets fans there.
Daron Sutton, the D-Backs TV play-by-play guy just said it right, going to break: "Well the Mets showed up. Didn't they?"
Excellent inning.Every ball was hit hard,except for Castillo's swinging bunt there.
What was it that they put Hans Solo in, carbonite I think. They should do that with Alou.
Maine already appears to be rushing his delivery.
Gil: Yeah. 2-0 to two of the first three hitters. Byrnes did him a favor by swinging at the first pitch.-JD
That's six errors for Wright.-JD
And Wright did Maine a disservice by muffing an inning-ending grounder.
Why can't this guy throw strikes? The bull pen is over-worked b/c we have 3 starters – Maine, Perez, and Pelfrey – who constantly waste pitches, even if they don't walk the batter. Maine has been behind guys ALL season.
Ok seriously Cassanova still isn't on the same page with any of his pitchers? He has got to go, bring up a "no hit" catcher, this is pathetic. Have you seen the ERAs on Cassanova v. Schneider out of the 'pen? This guy is killing our staff.
To BH: It's going to stay that way until Schneider is ready. A few more days now. ... However, unlike OP, Maine didn't have a meltdown after the error by Wright.-JD
Wow! Jse's halfway to the cycle.
JD,
That is a good point about Maine not having a meltdown. He has been better able than Perez to find a way to at least keep his team in games even when he doesn't have it.
I'm starting to think that the Mets don't like to play at shea, man they look like a different team. Who are these guys?
Ryan Church for President! Owings must be hurting, he's getting hit up pretty bad so far tonight.
Anyone out there still lamenting the Lastings Milledge deal (which I was in full support of when Omar pulled the trigger)?
Did I mention it? I like Church in the two hole.-JD
I have been torn about Church or Castillo in the two hole, but it's hard to argue w/ the results. Gil, you said it, Church has been a rock so far, at the plate and in the field.
Aaron Rowand just hit a 10th inning HR in Philly to give the Giants a 1 run lead.
Tomg is right. The booing at Shea is awful and last year and this year the team has played better away. I had a feeling about this trip and said so the other day. GET AWAY FROM THE MORONS AT SHEA!!!
all bow to the knowledge of john delcos, damn delcos, can you get a job in the majors yet? like i said before, delcos as our next manager!
The Mets are 9 – 5 at home, and 5 – 7 on the road.
clm,
don't get to far ahead of yourself. This d-backs team has good young hitters. The D-backs can hit. Cassanova isn't helping the situation because he is having trouble catching.
Here we go, to good to be true.
To CLM: You hate to say it, but it's true, the Mets don't have a home field advantage at Shea. All this talk about NY having baseball's most sophisticated fans is a load of crap. Anybody with half a brain should realize negative reinforcement such as booing doesn't work to motivate. How do you think Heilman feels every time he goes into a game to booing? And regardless of what he said, I can't help but think part of Delgado not taking the curtain call was to get back at the fans who booed him. Just something to think about.-JD
For all the talk about Oliver Perez's wildness and questionable durability, Maine has also had his share of struggles, as he is now. Will Wagner throw Maine under the bus if he's not long for this game, as he appears?
http://www2.nysun.com/article/75689
Check out this article from Tim Marchand at the Sun. He is openly calling for Willie to go. And he makes a good arguement for it. Not sure that I agree but it is reasoned.
As to the booing, interesting observation for you, I was at the game at Fenway last night (they ended up losing 3-0 by the way), even the last couple of innings the fans were really behind the team, trying to will them to a comeback….such a different attitude from Shea these days.
[Of course the pitchers weren't walking the 9 hitters like Maine just did,
#$!some of these pitchers deserve as ass kicking from their teammates, that's ridiculous.]wow, Delcos, no messing around here, I give you a lot of props for that last post. I totally agree with it.
JD – Exactly. If i had to to work every day to boos I'd tell them off and they wouldn't get my best work either.
Maine is trying to give it back right here.
To Gil: No, Billy will be quiet about Maine. But, it should be noted Maine isn't having the year the Mets hoped. His focus has wondered, too. This again brings us back to The Jacket?-JD
Can anybody pitch on this team. Maine gets handed a 4-0 lead and is about to give it up. This team is extremely frustrating to say the least.
Real fans don't heckle their own players. Only way I'd ever do that is if someone is jaking it.
Comes back with the swinging K. I am not getting ahead of myself. What I am saying is that this is the west coast swing where they have done well and gelled.
DAVID WRIGHT – RIGHT ON!!!
D-Wright is the man, put that on your highlight reel ESPN!!!!!
Magnifique!
Damn, sweet, sweet play by Wright.-JD
Wow, that was a nice play by Wright.
clm, I hear you, don't mind me. I am a little gun shy the way things have gone this season so far. I keep telling myself, patience man, patience.
Good for Maine to minimize the damage, but he's thrown 47 pitches in 2 innings! I can't digest another 4 innings of the bullpen.
JD: More than the Jacket and his culinary analogies, the current starters are missing the tutelage Pedro and El Duque could be providing them on the bench if they weren't hurt. And perhaps Mr. Santana needs to step up in the veteran pitchers' absences and counsel the youngsters.
I had forgotten how hard Alou hits the ball almost everytime, even when it goes for an out. Truely gifted.
Even though I appear to be one of those fans that boo at shea, I actually have never booed a met player, the other team yes but not a met player. It doesn't make sense, you want the met player to feel comfortable at home. Booing the player isn't going to make him better, it can only make it the situation worse.
Tomg – Frustration? UNDERSTOOD!!!LOL
If Maine can get a couple of innings 1-2-3 then he can go for a while. The walks have got to go.
I think the Mets need to add on runs. This d-back team is a good young hitting team. The mets need to get another one of those long innings going again.
Being an '80s music fiend, I hear a lotta '80s music going on at the D-Backs joint: Eric Byrnes comes to the dish with the strains of the Outfield's "I Don't Wanna Lose Your Love" and when Raul Casanova got rung up, I heard "Goodbye to You," by Scandal…
He's only walked 1! It just seems like more b/c he's constantly behind in the count, and then he gets hit when he needs to throw a strike.
K – K – Pop-up, go, Johnny, go, go , go!!!
Think – If Willie were to be relieved of his duties who would you want as mgr? I mean, I don't know anyone out there I would want. Davey Johnson would be my first but he said he's through.
when you walk the pitcher and it's Micah Owings, its not really like walking the "pitcher"
Gil: Music is good here, but between innings I listed to ``Break on Through,'' by the Doors on the headphones.-JD
clm: Or, what about Men at Work's "Be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good Joooooooohhhhhhhhhhnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
What more can you say about Ryan?
Is this guy too much? Or what? I know Tiffany – he's a Nats scrub that won't slide in the outfield but I like this guy.
This is where Beltran needs to step up with a big two out hit to get D-Wright home.
bat ryan 2nd, i was wrong, bat him wherever, this guy is great, what a pick up so far.
Cue up Ozzy Osbourne's "Crazy Train," Ryan Church's theme, as he's gone yard again! I'll ask again: Lastings who?
I am thinking this guy Church would have to bat second again tomorrow. Unless Willie tries to think too much.-JD
Men at Work? Wow haven't heard that in a long while. Good one.
This seems like 2006 for the first time this year.
Almost forgot Lastings "Know your place rook" Milledge.
They always crush in the desert. Maybe they can move CitiField here.
K – Fly Out – Walk – K
"Be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good/be good Joooooooohhhhhhhhhhnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
go, Johnny, go, go, go!!!
He's hitting 95 on the gun!!! Pitch count up, not going more than 5 innings unless they let him go over a hundred.
Well, I guess we should really stick a fork in Delgado, huh? O y'all of little faith.
Gil,
Do you really think a couple of singles proves anything?
proves he's still on the roster anyway. he may still be decent for a 7 hitter
That hit came on Maine's 90th pitch of the game. The way they count pitches, this could be his last inning. If so, that would be four more innings by the bullpen. This has got to stop.-JD
JM: Two homers off John Smoltz certainly does.
Maine… your pathetic.. Once again, struggling to complete even 5 innings…
That pitch to Drew was Maine's 100th. I was expecting balloons, fireworks and Hooters girls.-JD
Gil,
Smoltz had been absolutely dominant this season until that day at Shea, when it was very clear that his shoulder prevented him from being the HOF pitcher that he is. So first of all, not all homeruns are created equal. And secondly, Delgado hit only one of those HR off of Smoltz, the other was against the pen. But even if he had hit both off a healthy Smoltz, one game does not a season make. You need consistency, and we will see over time whether Delgado can provide that. I doubt that he can.
Since Maine hit, we can expect him out for the sixth, but he'll have a short leash.-JD
Really good to see Jose take that ball the other way. HR for the cycle.
Oh my god, Jose was almost on second before the ball was thrown! Wow, I haven't seen a jump like that in years.
Reyes beats the pitchout on the steal. This is the kind of player he can be.-JD
How huge is that?-JD
Jose and David Wright!!!
Huge hit from David.
Jose and David Wright!!!
And Johnny Maine coming out for the 6th. Give it up!!!
The Arizona announcers have been using a boxing analogy all night, they just declared that HR put the DBacks on the canvas.
Memo to Omar: Invest in the youth, and like one old guy (Alou!). Very large exception to the previous rule: Perez.
Now THIS is the Mets team we were all waiting to see. There's nothing like a good hitters ballpark to get the bats going. Please Willie, keep Church in the two spot until it stops working. This is the most fun I've had watching the Mets since the beginning of the season. Too bad we have Brandon "lights out" Webb coming up tomorrow, he's liable to put this all to a stop awful quick. Or, we could be the first team to touch him up all season. It needs to happen sometime, why not us?
The Mets are playing tonight like they are tired of being embarrassed.-JD
JM: Am I saying Delgado's homers make a season? Seems like you and all the other Delgado doubters are saying one month makes a season.
Last year, David Wright had a bad April and he went on to have a sensational year. Did you get out the fork to stick in him back then?
Look at Delgado's outstanding track record. He's had one bad year, last year, which would've been decent by lesser players' standards.
Delgado deserves a fair chance to see how this year will play out and condemning him after the first 26 games of a 162-game season is rash.
This will be the 7th straight game the starter has failed to hit 7 innings. When even our better relievers like Sanchez and Wagner can't get outs in August, no one should wonder why.
JD – As well they shoould!!!
JM: And also, according to your logic about Smoltz's condition, the Mets deserve no credit for their offensive outburst tonight. It's only happening because Micah Owings's injured ankle is preventing him from being the dominant pitcher he has been in revious starts.
i think they should let him go one more.
Gil,
Do you really want to compare an aging, broken-down 36-year-old with a 25-year-old who hasn't hit the prime of his career? David slumped last April, but he had his health and his skills at the plate that we knew would allow him to overcome it. Carlos Delgado doesn't have either of those things anymore. But you know, I hope you are right.
Gil,
Now you want to compare John Smoltz with Micah Owings? Sorry, that is also a specious analogy. I know Owings is hurt, but 1) it's not his arm; and 2) Owings got torched in his last start, although he has been pretty good this year. Point is, Smoltz had been almost untouchable this season until that day, and has been for close to 20 years. Owings was fixing for a fall, so yes, I think the Mets have earned this.
gotta check out going turkey hunting in thr morn. nite all
Maine is done for the night. Six innings, two runs, six hits, six strikeouts and two walks. He threw 107 pitches. Outside the two runs allowed, the most important number were the six innings. With the way he labored, I didn't think he's go that far. It's still not what they want, but better than five.-JD
Nite CLM. Thanks for dropping by.-JD
JM: I'm afraid all of us, with every breath we take, are aging. And an elbow injury healed from a couple of years ago, a broken hand healed from last year and a hip injury that cost him some spring training games doesn't qualify Carlos Delgado as broken down.
How quickly Delgado bashers forget his 38 homers in 2006 and his monster post-season, which nearly carried us into the World Series.
I seem to remember back in that magical year, Mets fans were ready to bail on Jose Valentin after he had a bad first month and later he became a vital part of the team's offense, exceeding everyone's expectations.
Is it too much to ask to give Delgado a fair chance and not say he's toast after one month? Booing Delgado certainly won't help him get untracked.
Nice rebound game by the Mets.
JD, I was listening to the Ronnny speak about Wags comments about the team in general and Ollie. I gotta agree with Billy and Ron, I liked that Billy called out the team because I really think thats what the Mets needed. Billy is a competitor and he is tired of being embarrassed. What baffles me is that Willie didn't like him using the media. I feel that Willie and his players are not as close as he was in his first year.
Aagh, so freakin close….
To pvhornet05: My feeling on why Randolph would not like Wagner, anybody else, calling out the team, is because it shows him up, as if he can't go to the whip himself and a player is doing his job. Of course, Willie won't admit it, but that's my thinking. It's similar to him not liking The Jacket to talk much with the writers.-JD
Ahh there is the Sandy Alomar of last year. You have got to be kidding me, a third base coach in the majors sends a guy who is out by 30 feet? Look, taking a shot with a close play, that's fine, go for it. But if your judgment is THAT far off, you below in a retirement home, not coaching third.
That would have been a great finish if Jose got that inside the parker.
Oh well, great bounce back night for Jose and David as well
BH you've got to be kidding right?
If you don't know why Alomar sent Reyes, then I think you should choose another sport to watch
If the Mets aren't up five, Alomar doesn't send him. And, if the Mets aren't up five, then Reyes slides or runs into the catcher.-JD
This is when I start wondering about the Mets lack of fundamentals.
Why would Carlos Beltran attempt to nail a baserunner at third to end an inning just then, when if he makes a throw to second, he keeps the batter at first base, creates a force at second base and prevents the batter from advancing to scoring position?
Now another single would make it a 7-4 instead of a 7-3 game.
If Willie can't take one of his player stepping up and helping out the team because it makes him look like he's not the one in control, he needs to get the hell out of here.
I'm also tired of hearing how the Mets are so much better under Willie's helm. Some of that is circumstantial. They just happened to get a better group of players when he took over the team. Is that due to Willie or is that just due to him being in the right place at the right time? I feel like the Mets win in spite of him, not because of him.
It's not like this is Bobby Valentine, who took largely a cast of average players and got them to the World Series. We had Jay Payton, Benny Agbayani and Timo Perez/Derek Bell as our starting outfield for god's sake.
Gil,
Just so we are clear, I do not boo Delgado, or any other Met. But I do think he's finished.
Come back from the ledge, everyone.
Good start to the road trip.
G'night.
Willie sounds insecure if he lets Wags' comments bug him. That could be part of the reason why Omar didn't get Jaramillo to be the hitting coach.
Wow, very encouraging inning by Sanchez. Even when he's had good innings in previous outings he didn't look extremely confident. His "snap-throw" style follow throw delivery looking a lot more confident and emphatic tonight.
Doug, a 5 run lead is not what it once was, you can take gambles up that much but sending a guy thrown out by that much just supports our observations of Sandy last year, which is that he is recklessly aggressive sending guys. If you don't know that then it's you who should go watch another sport.
On the replay it didn't look like he was aggressively waving Reyes on, it looked like a hesitant, "Ehhh go, why not" move.
Great win tonight. The pitching, hitting, and defense were all outstanding tonight…
As for Reyes… Sandy's decision was the right one…In any other case, Reyes is standing at third… But it's the 8th inning, you do have a 5 run lead, and you are a homerun away from the cycle, so I think in this case only, it was the right move….
I agree with the Reyes attempt for home. Plus it made for great baseball. Nice and aggressive to the point where he refrain from taking out the catcher which would have been unneccessary.
I was at the game last night. here are some perspectives:
There was a small but loud contingent of Mets fans, but in the last few years we have been larger and louder. The Dbacks fans were more combative than Ive ever seen them before, and of course I had to hear about the Mets collapse last year. They were pissed off after the first inning of Mets fan celebrations, as our team lit them up quickly.
I was close to where Wright made his incredible catch down the third base line. To hell with those who say he didnt deserve his gold glove last year.
Alou's shot almost took off Byrnes glove in the latter part of the game.Welcome back Moises.
There were 4 Mets fans behind us, and we had some nice conversations about the Mets, New york etc.
If any of you have the chance to come to the desert this time of year, you would love it. The weather was perfect and the roof was open. They have good food at this ballpark, They have a great new scoreboard, and for the most part the fans are relaxed and tolerant of us loud mouth New Yorkers.
You're wrong, Delcos. NY does have the most sophisticated baseball fans. If the team is reacting negatively to the feedback being provided by the fans, that's on them and, more specifically, their manager. If Aaron Heilman can't get anyone out because he's getting booed, he needs to find a new line of work.
NY may have the most sophisticated fans but not the ones who boo Santana on opening day … or a reliever BEFORE they even throw a pitch. Those fans are morons. So NY has both the brightest & the dumbest fans. A double distinction.
I'm sure the stadium and weather at Chase Field is a big reason the Mets hit so well there. But it's probably also because of the lack of pressure that gets put on them at Shea by the hyperactive boo birds. The hitters are more relaxed. Fans should think of that next time before they boo one of their own players.
Tiffany, c'mon, I thought you were smarter than that. How sophisticated is it to boo? Where's the intelligence in wanting the ax a month into the season? And, the media is no better when it feeds the monster with columns and reports of who should be fired this early? There's a lot of knee jerk out there. And, I confess, I try to be above that, but I am not immune to falling into that trap.-JD
I don't care if it's a coincidence or not. Willie should keep Church in the 2-hole until it doesn't work anymore. Because it's certainly worked up to now. It it ain't broke, don't fix it. Most important, the Reyes we all love emerges whenever Church hits behind him. It would be dumb to change the lineup now.
JK: You are right. That is a far better way of saying it when it comes to the issue of NY's sophisticated fans. The way I said it might have lumped the good in with the bad. Thanks.-JD
John—You seem to be equating booing with a lack of sophistication; by that same measure, does that make the fan who never boos his home team sophisticated? I think a fan who provides nothing but positive feedback is anything but sophisticated.
Now, whether booing a particular player in a particular instance is warranted is another story altogether; but booing, in and of itself, doesn't equate to a lack of sophistication.
I think the booing tends to reflect the persona of NY; i.e., if you can't get the job done, we'll find someone else who can. That might be off-putting to certain players, but that's really their problem, not the fans'. If Aaron Heilman can't perform under these conditions, NY isn't going to change to placate him; rather, we'll find someone better to take his place. That's life in the big city. And I don't think that attitude reflects a lack of sophistication.
As for wanting to fire the manager, you're mischaracterizing it by saying that this movement is starting a month into the season: Many fans were calling for his dismissal last October, after he presided over, arguably, the worst collapse in the history of the sport. I count myself among those fans and continue to be concerned, not only with what transpired last year, but how it seems to have carried over to this season, as well.
Those are big words. Unfortunately, it's not so neat and tidy. It doesn't work that way. You can't just go out and find someone to replace players who don't perform well. Either because of big contracts that no one else will take, or because competent players to replace those you don't like aren't easy to find.
In the meantime, the players who are booed most likely perform worse under this pressure. You can see it in their stats which are lousy at home. This turns a home field advantage to a home field disadvantage. That certainly doesn't sound sophisticated to me.
I'm not saying booing is always bad. Just that in New York, it can be excessive and moronic. And so very counter-productive.
It's not so neat and tidy to make assumptions about which players' home stats reflect the effects of booing. I don't know how you isolate for effect that Player X's poor home performance can be traced directly to the fans. That's something of a stretch to me.
Suffice to say, performers react differently to the fans. Some are oblivious; some are decimated; and some make a concerted effort to rise above it.
As for the sophistication aspect, it's not the fans' job to secure a home-field advantage; rather, they are the consumers whose satisfaction with the product determines the profitability of the organization. If they think Aaron Heilman needs to go, they will most likely voice this opinion, as a form of feedback, to both the player and the organization.
Finally, it does work that way. If the guy cutting your lawn or slicing your salami isn't doing it the way you like it, you will tell him and, if need be, replace him. Unless, of course, you're a St. Louis Cardinal fan, in which case you just sit there and accept whatever crap is presented, because you don't want to ever boo for the home team. And, that, to me, is a question of sophistication, not NYers booing.
Did you ever look at the splits for Beltran, Delgado, and Schoeneweis? They reflect vastly poorer performance at home than on the road. Not even close. Most players have a better performance at home than on the road (park factors aside). And when they don't, it's only by a small margin. But the disparity for some of the Mets players is stark. For example, Show's ERA at home last year is 6.91. On the road it was 3.26. You would expect just the opposite since he pitches at a pitchers park. In addition, the Mets were the only team in the majors last year to have a worse record at home than on the road.
Now what is the reason for this home field disadvantage? And the poor performance of some players at Shea?
All these things say clearly to me that the excessive booing has been detrimental to their performance at Shea.
Right. But if their behavior is detrimental to the team's winning, as I believe it is at times, then their own actions are counter-productive to their own satisfaction. As well as to the profitability of the organization.
No, it doesn't. Since when are meat and lawn cutters on multi-year $3-20 million guaranteed contracts?
Omar tried to get rid of Schoeneweis over the winter. But guess what? No one wanted him with his contract. And the Mets weren't willing to eat 2 years of it. Which I can understand. So, sure. You can tell your deli guy he's full of baloney and it won't cost you. But you can't do that with Schoeneweis. And most other players.
"But if their behavior is detrimental to the team's winning, as I believe it is at times, then their own actions are counter-productive to their own satisfaction. As well as to the profitability of the organization."
You're making assumptions here. Like, for example, that the consumer's satisfaction lies in the team winning; and, that the consumer cares about the profitability of the organization. I think how the game is played—and, hopefully, won—means more than just winning. Moreover, I can't fathom how a consumer would care less about the organization's profitability. That's ownership's issue, not the consumer's.
"No, it doesn't. Since when are meat and lawn cutters on multi-year $3-20 million guaranteed contracts?
Omar tried to get rid of Schoeneweis over the winter. But guess what? No one wanted him with his contract. And the Mets weren't willing to eat 2 years of it. Which I can understand. So, sure. You can tell your deli guy he's full of baloney and it won't cost you. But you can't do that with Schoeneweis. And most other players."
All of this is ownership's problems, not the consumer's. For all I know the guy cutting the grass is the owner's son and the deli guy has pictures of the store manager in a compromising position. Regardless, as the consumer, I provide the business with the feedback—and then it's up to the business to decide how to respond. Whether Schoeneweis can be traded or whether the deli guy sells the pictures to the National Inquirer, it's not my problem as a consumer.
I don't think saying that fans care most about the team winning is anything but a totally logical assumption. One which virtually no one would disagree with.
In baseball, you better care about your team's profitability. Because if they aren't profitable, they're stuck with low payrolls. And can't afford the better talent to make their team play better. Any "sophisticated" fan would understand that.
And of course getting rid of bad players is the problem of the front office. But it doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand that most organizations simply can't because of contracts. And therefore, for the most part the teams are stuck with these players. So are the fans. Since you're stuck with them, whether you like it or not, why would you do something that makes them perform worse?
As Wagner has often said, the booing is dumb because he's going to be there till the end of his contract whether you like it or not. Wagner is someone who I don't think the booing bothers. But it adversely affects the performance of others like Schoeneweis.
I guess if you don't really care whether the team plays its best or not, then booing doesn't matter.
What does that have to do with anything? If you don't like the way they cut your lawn or your meat, you can easily go to someone else. Baseball teams don't have that option with players on expensive guaranteed contracts.
You know beautiful Tiffany that one of the me's is JK, so when you are having an argument with he it may also be me so two against one isn't fair so stop picking on me I mean he I mean I love you Tiffany. Next to me you are the most entertaining poster on this blog site…...
Here's my take on this.
Personally, I don't agree with booing the home team. However, fans do have the right to do it, and there are times when it is justified.
However, the Mets fans performance this season has been disgraceful. Booing Johan after his first home start? Booing the team mercilessly? I honestly don't think any Mets fan is justified in booing in April. Sorry, I don't.
Someone needs to tell these people at the games that baseball is not the same as football. It's a long season and there are going to be ups and downs.
One more thing to note. Tiffany's perspective is very enlightening. Perhaps she represents a different breed of fan. For me, the Mets, Rangers, Knicks, Packers, and Real Madrid are my teams. I stand by them through thick and thin, and support them. I agree with Tiffany. It has nothing to do with sophistication. This is just the type of fan I am. Plus, I played a lot of ball, so I understand you don't always get the run in from 3rd with less than 2 outs.
However, the view Tiffany expresses seems to be the one of a fan who watches the game for mostly entertainment purposes. Thus, they treat the players like Roman gladiators. If they are not entertained… thumbs down, boo the heck out of them. If they are entertained… thumbs up, cheer and ask for a curtain call.
"He who controls the mob, controls Rome."
Keith, Tiffany believes it has everything to do with "sophistication." She thinks they boo more in NY than in other places because they are more sophisticated fans.
And this is what I disagree with. At least the portion of fans who are excessively booing.
I know fans have a right to boo. I understand why they do it. I just don't think it's very "sophisticated" at all to do it at some of the times they choose to. Like Santana's first game in NY. Or when a reliever comes into a game and hasn't yet thrown a pitch.
stop picking on Tiffany. She knows her stuff and has a sense of humor. Tiffany is queen of LoHud mets blog.
I hate to break the news to you little metsie keith, but it is supposed to be entertainment. Only you metsies want it to be life and death, war and peace, whatever and wherever….
Tiffany rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Tiffany is the last good little metsie in the world as is clm and dave, and Delcos…...
Sorry, I don't care about my team's profitability. The money is either there or it isn't, regardless of whether I boo.
And, no winning at all costs isn't the goal of every fan. If it were, Barry Bonds would have a job right now.
Billy Wagner might be there to the end of his contract, most likely because he is a guy not bothered by the booing; in contrast, if it bothers someone like Schoeneweis, then management is likely going to have to move him, even if it means eating his contract.
"If you don't like the way they cut your lawn or your meat, you can easily go to someone else. Baseball teams don't have that option with players on expensive guaranteed contracts."
While I can easily go someplace else for my lawn service or deli meat, I can also stop supporting my baseball team, too. The same way it might be tough for the store manager to fire the deli guy, it might also be tough for a team to eat a guaranteed contract. But, if that person is causing me not to support their business, it's a decision they'll have to consider.
Keith—I hold no hard and fast rules for booing. Sometimes, booing a player makes no sense; sometimes, it's warranted.
What I was disagreeing with, originally, was Delcos' comment that booing makes NY fans unsophisticated. I think the fans who never boo—like in St. Louis—are anything but sophisticated. I'd much rather see fans exercise their right to boo and debate whether it's warranted, than see them mindlessly cheer on anyone wearing the home uniform, regardless of their performance. And that's what you get in other cities. And I think that is anything but sophisticated.
What I've been disagreeing with, later in this conversation, is the idea that I, as a fan, bear some type of responsibility for my team's performance and profitability. I believe they are there for my enjoyment, and if I don't approve of them, I can express my opinions and/or take my business elsewhere. But I bear no responsibility to coddle anyone who's bothered by my opinion.
Tiffany, I get your point completely. However, I think you're harsh for calling fans in other cities unsophisticated. It's just a different perspective. And you've essentially made my point. Your interested in the Mets as a source of entertainment and enjoyment. You've also expressed that you may take your business elsewhere. This is something that I, or Cardinals fans, would never even think of.
It's all about perspective. The Mets are my team, for better or for worse. For the most part, I see booing as counterproductive. Omar Minaya doesn't need me booing for him to recognize that Schoenweiss or Heilman suck. He's a fairly astute guy. The thing is, it's a tad more difficult for him to just fire Heilman than for the deli owner. Plus, it wouldn't be prudent either. Baseball is a really long season and players are going to have their peaks and valleys. For the most part, we're stuck with these guys for the long haul. So I choose to be positive and supportive of my team.
So no, I don't think it is unsophisticated to not boo, because there is a conscious choice involved. I don't agree with everything the Mets do. And I certainly acknowledge their flaws. However, I just try to be reasonable and keep things in perspective. Way more often than not, I don't feel the need to boo my team.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the booing actually detracts from their performance at home which detracts from their winning. And last year, that could have cost them reportedly upwards of $25 million by simply not making the playoffs.
I never said "winning at all costs" is the goal of every fan. I said winning was their #1 priority, trumping how they play the game. How they play the game was your reference and I assumed that did not include steroids or other forms of cheating. And by the way, I wouldn't want Bonds on the Mets, but there are many Mets fans who would.
They don't do that. Not for someone with 1 or 2 whole years left on the contract. The most they might do is let someone go near the all-star break during the final year. Someone who was really "sophisticated" would realize this. In the meantime, the excessive booing IMO has caused him and other Mets to perform worse at home, costing the Mets games.
Also, it bothers Beltran and Delgado and Santana. Should Omar call all GMs now and tell them all 3 of them are available for trade? I bet Boston and the Yankees would take Santana.
Again, deli guys aren't on guaranteed multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts. It's easier for anyone to fire a deli guy than it is for teams to let most players go.
I'm sure the Wilpons won't mind if one booing customer like you takes your business elsewhere. They will be all sold out next year at the new park and attendance at Shea has been better than ever.
I wish all the chronic boo-birds would leave Shea and not come back. I'm glad that it will be harder to get into Citi Field next year. Maybe that will ensure less of the "sophisticated" fans can get in. I'd prefer the quieter corporate types, even if they're bandwagon fans, only because they're less likely to do idiotic things like boo Santana on opening day.
So now the truth comes out.. JK doesn't think all little metsies are "despicable". He thinks just the little metsies who are corporate board room SOBS who rip people off for everything and anything they want to can be good metsies. JK only wants the suits to come to see the meties. The rest of the world isn't good enough to be a JK type of metsie. Don't believe me this is what JK who is really, as we all now know the epitome of the truly "dspicable"{ elitist little metsie said
JK SAID: "I'm glad that it will be harder to get into Citi Field next year. Maybe that will ensure less of the "sophisticated" fans can get in. I'd prefer the quieter corporate types, " .. THAT's WHAT JK SAID!!!!!!
In other words JK says metsies are only good metsies worthy of a seat in the parking lot stadium if they are coroprate people. JK I'm afraid you are the "despicable elitist snob" that you yourself named. You aren't a good Metsie. No metsie would hate his own fans for not going to work in a suit. JK thinks butchers and truck drivers and cabbies and cops and Marines and soldiers who are good enough to go to Iraq and die for JK's safety aren't good enough to watch the Mets because they don't wear suits. Only rich corporate pukes are good enough to be JK metsies…. Shame on you JK. Shame shame shame….....
JK—Why are you putting "sophisticated" in quotes? Is that meant to be some type of personal attack or insult?
Tiffany—No, it's not meant to be a personal attack or insult. I put the word in quotes as a way to emphasize exactly what part of your opinion I disagree with. The booing that followed Santana's exit from the mound and precedes the first pitch thrown by Heilman and Show is anything but "sophisticated."