Off-day Chat: A look at April.
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- May
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There were some bright spots for the month. Billy Wagner and Ryan Church for example. David Wright had his moments, but tailed in the end. Johan Santana deserved more than his record shows.
There were red flags, too.
Jose Reyes still flounders. Carlos Beltran and Carlos Delgado had down months, with the latter showing few signs of turning things around. The bullpen is overworked and has underperformed. If you aren’t concerned about Aaron Heilman, you should be. Neither John Maine or Oliver Perez have pitched to expectations.
A lot of injuries, too.
Pedro Martinez, Orlando Hernandez, Brian Schneider and Moises Alou. Luis Castillo hobbled for most of the month.
For all that went wrong, the Mets are still a whisper from first place. That shouldn’t be their thinking. During the collapse the Mets’ refrain was “we’re still in first place.’’
They sang it until their season was over.
They can’t be thinking how close they are now. They need to be thinking about how overall lousy they have been and realize that won’t cut it.
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on Thursday, May 1st, 2008 at 2:50 pm by John Delcos.
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Sounds like the time is right for a players’ only meeting—though if I’m Oliver Perez, I wanna ask Wags to step out into the hallway with me.
What REALLY chafes me is that in spring training Wags goes around wearing a “Big Pelf” T-shirt to support Mike Pelfrey, then recently he’s in the locker room patting Aaron Heilman on his back and telling him to keep his head up.
Pelfrey has been mediocre at best and at times has been just as maddeningly inconsistent at finding the elusive strike zone Oliver Perez is now desperately searching for.
Heilman?
All he has done so far is douse nearly every opposition fire with napalm with walks, straight fastballs and hanging breaking pitches.
So when Perez struggles, what does Wags do?
Publicly rips him a new one and throws him under the bus. I seem to remember Wags doing exactly the same thing when he was a Phillie, publicly dissing Pat Burrell and earning him the nickname, “The Rat.”
Did Wagner dare dis Tom Glavine’s sorry effort on the last day of last season — far worse than Perez’s, far more impactful and arguably the worst outing in Mets history?
Granted, Perez hasn’t yet lived up to expectations. But was it Perez who booted what could’ve been an inning-ending double play grounder to second base? Was it Perez who didn’t sprint back to second base from left field on a rundown play?
And while Wags has so far had a great start to the season, wasn’t it he who gave up a two-out, ninth inning, game-tying single to Freddy Sanchez the other night? Didn’t he allow a tie-breaking home run in NLCS Game 2 to So Taguchi and continue to give up two more runs?
Will dissing Perez in public help get reacquainted with the strike zone? Unlikely.
And as for Wagner saying the team lacks effort and desire, was he watching the last two games in which the normally mild-mannered Carlos Beltran fired his bat on the ground in disgust when he didn’t come through? Is that not desire to succeed?
Maybe what the team lacks is fundamentals.
How else to explain Angel Pagan’s recent Roger Cedeno impression in left field?
Or Jose Reyes not sprinting back to second base to cover the bag on a rundown play?
Or Luis Castillo’s playing a potential double play ball like a live hand grenade?
Wagner needs to understand that he’s on a team and that as such, it’s a group that wins and loses as a unit, not as 25 individuals.
He also needs to remember he’s not above criticism.
If Wagner wants to call out teammates out privately, that’s his prerogative. But even in doing that, fairly spread the blame around instead of trashing one of the goats du jour.
I cannot understand the “It’s only April” attitude that some fans bring to this forum. As of right now, the Mets are just playing a continuation of the 2007 season. The same players, making the same mistakes, with the same lack of focus (notice I didn’t say fire). That could change, and I’m not saying it won’t. But on today, the 1st of May, in the year of our lord, 2008, the Mets look like a .500 team. And please, if someone responds with optimism that this team is better than that, tell me what it is that informs such an opinion.
JD: Can’t disagree with anything you said except for Delgado. Heilman has not been the same since the Molina homer and if Reyes and Beltran had been hitting, this team would have another 3 or 4 wins I bet. Given Delgado’s decline if they don’t get better out of Beltran and Reyes, then there is no way this team is competing for a championship.
JM: Well because it really is ONLY April. There is time for the team to turn things around. Look at last years Yankees and Rockies. You just don’t know what is going to happen.
Only April is a cop-out. can this be turned around. hell yea.
However, like an infection once you see the redmark. you need to start treatment.
I havent seen any treatment. The same old do nothings are still playing and bringing down the team.
I wonder if Omar is keeping Willie from benching Delgado. And what the love affair is with Pagan and why Endy isnt given the main rotation. he proves himself time and again. and time again he;s still second string..
Castillo plays damned hard for someone in pain so i cant fault him.
The pitching .. well its the 90’s all over again.
Steve C: You know and I know that Delgado isn’t going to be benched. There isn’t anyone out there to exactly replace him unless the Mets put Church at 1b when Alou comes back. They’ll give him IMO at least thru June to snap out of it, unless the Mets are mired in 3rd place or below. Hopefully at that time when he proves to be extremely done, the Mets won’t mind eating half of his contract. As far as Endy goes, I think he is the fourth OF as soon as Alou comes back. He did start the last 3 games so I imagine that Willie played Pagan yesterday because a lefty was on the mound and willie wanted to get him some AB’s.
Steve – O :There are people that can replace him. trust me. right now Keith could do the job.
There has been a lot of talk about replacing Willie with a fiery manager who will kick furniture and some butts.I am not sure Omar wants that sort of manager. If Willie is ever fired, I would love to hear the truth about what goes on behind the scenes. Who really is in charge and making day to day decisions in terms of who plays and who stays. If I am right, and I am probably not, then Omar’s boys (Delgado and others) are not going anywhere. I can almost see the puppet strings attached to Willie.
Omar keeping Willie from benching Delagdo. That is a dumb statement. Who should Willie play ? If Willie thought that
Delgado was finished he would tell Omar.
One comment is true, ” The fans at Shea are mad because they feel no one paid for last years collapse.”
Who paid Milledge, Glavine, Mota ?
The truth is no one paid.
Firing Willie would at least pacify the fan base.
Unless Alou comes back and hits .350 this team is 500 at best. Maybe even with Alou that is all they are.
I hope the ship gets turned around, but at the end of May if things are no better. Shea will have seemed peaceful compared to how ugly it could really get.
Feel free to disagree without using the word, “dumb” Thank you.
It is not about being a fiery manager.
How about a manager who knows the double switch , the suicide squeeze , the safety squeeze or the wheel play.
Again, I just threw out some thoughts based on what I have been reading on different blogs. I don’t think a fiery manager is the answer and I do think that Willie knows the double switch, etc. You need to have the players to execute. After the laps there will be rundown practice. My earlier point was simply to raise the question as to whether Willie is fully in charge.
OK sorry for that.
Do you honestly think Omar is picking the starting lineup ?
Delgado is not going anywhere for at least 16 million reasons.
Castillo for about 24 million reasons.
Alou for about 8 million reasons.
The Mets have no replacements for Delgado or Castillo.
If they did neither would still be here.
To think money does not dictate the starting line up is not living in the real world.
Omar bought Willie the groceries and now Willie has to make the meal with what he has.
and lately dinner is getting burnt every other night.
I understand your points. I wouldn’t go so far to say that Omar picks the starting lineup but I just have to wonder whether some of what Willie has been blamed for, like going to Mota too often, are due to pressure from above. If money was always the sole determinant, then Zito would still be in the starting rotation for SF. Like I said, I may be way off base on this but I just wanted to hear some other opinions.
The Zito thing is actually very shocking.
Is putting Zito in the pen going to help fix him.
I do not think so. Big money contracts can really screw your team.
At the end of 2008 outside of the 18 million still owed Castillo ( about one year of Zito )
The Mets really do not have any bad contracts. ( we hope )
Also could you imagine if Zito were playing for the Mets.
The booing Delgado gets would seem like cheers in comparison.
I was a big Willie supporter when he first started and through most of last year. Even with the collapse, I wasn’t of the opinion that “someone’s head had to roll”
It was a historic collapse and while it’s the manager who takes the fall for such things, I didn’t think it was/would be fair to have canned him.
That being said (and I too subscribe to the theory that only 26 games have been played), there is something missing that neither I nor any other Mets fan can put their fingers on. The whole lack of “fire” is completely overblown.
I’ve stated before on here that people compare last year and this year to ‘06 like that team had a “fire.” No…what they had was a damn good lineup which included great years from expected players (Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Delgado) and above-average ones from unexpected (Valentin, El Duque, Maine, Duaner). That team was just head and shoulders above the rest…and add to the fact that EVERYTHING went right for them that season, it just makes last year and this year seem 10x worse.
I’m not one for a ranting and raving manager…it does no good in baseball. Besides..how the hell do we know what Willie says behind the clubhouse doors? Not everyone calls out their players in the press or throws hissy fits on camera…nor should they. I actually think his even-keel approach is good for the long haul.
BUT
I also think it can be a detriment, and aside from a few (Wags, Wright, Beltran-who DOES come to play), this team just seems to take a far-too laid back approach to the game itself and losses.
I’m as big of a Mets fan as there is…and I will always love the team and watching them, no matter their record. But the second half of last season and this season so far…they’re just BORING to watch. I don’t need to see fist-pumping and guys diving all around to get dirty for no reason…but they just seem to play in a catatonic state and I wish I knew when/why this occurred. Even when they got off to that great start last year (35-19), something still wasn’t the same.
To me, this is where I think Randolph’s even-keeled approach, while by and large a positive for the marathon that is baseball, is also permeating into some players.
A few other tidbits:
1) whether Delgado is done or not (I know everyone’s opinions on him), he exemplifies the catatonic state of this team
2) I really, really, really think that once (if???) Reyes gets going, the rest of the team will follow suit. It may not be fair to put him on that, but that’s just the way it is. I also sense, not entirely, but I DO get a feeling that if there is one player Randolph has lost, it is him.
JD-
Straight talking, no nonsense. Only one month in so a lot can change…but what do you feel has happened to this team since last June?? IOW, do they not care as much as it seems?
Unfortunately, some of the groceries were on the shelf way too long. Some of the items are moldy and stale.
The Mets are in first place right now. I think they can afford to be more patient with their team.
I am shocked at the Zito thing.
Is he really pitching that badly?
As for Delgado there is always Easley or Anderson. They can play the same D and hit better which will make the lineup better.
As for Ollie. I have no problem with Billie calling out the team and the starting pitching. Everyone here is asking for accountability. Very few of our players are perfect not least of which is our closer, but Ollie sucked last night and for a player of his ‘talent’ to not make it out of the second is terrible.
The pen has had to save the starters all year. The only one to really do it is the new guy Johan. Heilman has been overused. Perhaps that is why he is not pitching well.
The surprise is Figueroa and Big Pelf have pitched better than expected. All the starters should go 7 not 4.
I think it is a good sign that the players are saying that it is unacceptable to play like this rather than the pc thing of its early, we will work it out, yada yada yada.
Dave- I mentioned this a while ago…I think that after Randolph’s questionable use of the bullpen last season (not all of his fault, but still), he has OVERcompensated this year.
Now, the starters HAVE to give the team more length, which is definitely contributing to the bullpen being overworked, but Randolph has GOT to stop using 3-4 relievers to get through two innings of work.
Some games call for it, particularly ones of importance or against rivals like the Braves/Phils…but not every friggen game.
And another thing, I know why he got Heilman in there yesterday and they DO have a day off today…but why not use Joe Smith instead of Aaron or Sosa. He’s the ONLY one who didn’t pitch on Tuesday night yet he doesn’t go when OP can only last 1 2/3????
When you trade away most of your youth, you trade away most of your spark.
You’re left with old guys who… want to win, sure… but put a lot more of their time into “getting along” or their individual legacies or into remembering themselves as they used to be instead of who they are or… any number of things other than winning.
When you bank on physically-ruined guys bouncing back… especially positionally… you’re playing a sucker bet.
There’s no enthusiasm because it is an organization built around Willie’s bullcrap Joe Torrism belief that enthusiasm is a bad thing.
Enthusiasm and positive momentum are siamese twins at the hip.
I miss Milledge and I miss the Reyes we had when he had some room to be enthusiastic.
Buncha ruined old men and polite role players just happy to be there… that ain’t the way you win.
It just ain’t the way you win.
I hope I’m wrong but Met fans who keep going with the direction of “the positive attitude”, “it’s early”, “The mets can turn this around” are going to be disappointed. I’ve said this several times already on this blog but since the second half of last season until now the Mets are playing around .500 ball. I totally agree with JM. I have seen nothing change. This team plays with no passion, heart and looks uninspired. It could very well be the type of players (character) that Omar has brought here to play for the Mets. The Mets don’t seem to have a leader on the team. They play like individuals, not a team.
Also, it’s easy and understandable to get bent out of shape over yesterday’s game, but did you see some of the scores around the league yesterday? The Brewer’s team era went up a bit. Turnbow’s era is now a tidy 15.63. bannister lasted only 3 innings for the Royals. There must have been a lunar eclipse somewhere yesterday.
Mike – I agree. The starters need to start. There are times I would like Willie to just leave the guy in there – starter or reliever. But the whole team is playing badly and he doesn’t really have many options.
Mike C. – I agree. Players who are not established have a bit more drive on the whole. The enthusiasm thing is misplaced. I do not think Willie discourages enthusiasm, but he does discourage someone who prances around like a peacock when they havent done anything.
This team is old, which is the GM’s fault and should have more young guys on it. As I and others’ have said before, the new guys are the ones playing well.
Dave
I look at teams like the Red Sox, Phillies, Cubs, d-backs to name a few. When I see highlights on espn with these teams they show emotion, fire, passion and they look like a team, not the Mets.
From now on no more ‘It’s only April’. From now on its gonna be “It’s only May”. Until June of course then “It’s only June”.
Dakko- Point taken. I for one am not freaking out about anything….it’s too early. I do expect Reyes to at least play like a star player, if not a superstar. Same for Beltran.
Just those two getting back to their normal levels will aid in the inconsistency of the offense. Also, when Alou plays…he hits, and that is not even a question, IMO.
I won’t even mention Santana. Maine will be fine…he’s coming around already. Perez is what he is. And the bottom of the rotation has been a pleasant surprise thus far.
Also, the bullpen, while being overworked, hasn’t been THAT bad. Grand slams and a few big innings skew things.
That being said, they need to have a strong trip here…and what would be ideal would be to turn in a May like they did last year (won 19 games, I believe). That would ease a lot of the angst of the fanbase and most likely, the players themselves.
I mean, look at the early parts of the season.
Who were the guys who were producing at first, other than Wright?
It was Pagan, Schneider and Church… three guys hitting way way WAY over their levels because they were the guys who had something to prove, as two guys who have always been slotted as part-timers and a defensive catcher.
And when Pagan came down to Earth, Church started coming down to Earth and Schneider took injury after injury…
Yeah, here we are. 14-12.
Twenty-seven games is a sixth of a season, no longer “the start of the season”.
You miss Milledge A man who still can’t get to the ballpark on time.
If Milledge were still with the Mets and was late for that game how do you think that would have gone over.
Correction, though, Other Mike:
IF Alou plays, he hits.
That’s a huge uppercase IF.
I hope the fans are being smart this year as they choose players for the All-Star team. I would hate to see the process become more of a travesty than it already is. Right now, I would only vote for Church. As much as I love the Mets, I hope some of the poor performances are not going to be rewarded by the fans.This may seem off topic but I would rather see the fans not vote for the usual players as opposed to booing them.
I miss enthusiasm and I miss a sense of the future, Scott.
Rookies make rookie mistakes or else they wouldn’t be rookies.
As for the whole enthusiasm thing. While I think Willie is old-school when it comes to stuff like that, I don’t think he’s holding anyone back.
If that was the case, 2005 would have been the year the team played lifeless…that was when he was at his strictest.
IMO, it’s a combo of things. Vets who are old and realize it, a sense of entitlement in some of the players that they can just throw their bats/gloves out there and win. Injuries and last but certainly not least, a trepidation of last year, whether they admit it or not.
If this team was able to reel off a streak where they win, say 10-of-12 or something like that…I think it would go a long way towards relaxing things.
Steve (the Original),
It is not only April. Rather, the Mets have been playing like this for the better part of a season. Is there time to remedy that? Of course. But the days left on the calendar are immaterial if the players inherently lack whatever it is they need to kick it up a notch. I don’t know anymore if it’s focus, passion, or a general weakness of the will to pull it out when the games don’t come easy. I just know that right now the Mets are on a collision course with mediocrity, and we are along for the ride.
Yeah, this team needs Milledge like a hole in the head. Another guy with his head crammed up his ass. Thank god we have Church, we’d be under .500 without him.
Mike, that is what I find so perplexing about this team. Just when it seems that the ship has been righted, sloppy and uninspired baseball reappears. Perhaps after winning 3 or 4 straight, a few of the players get bored because it all seems so easy.
Dakko-
That’s why I think a SUSTAINED period of success would go a long way towards “righting the ship.” Now I’m not here to say they will do this, but winning 5 in a row is nice, but following that up by winning another 5 of 6 is what this team needs to do and has done ONCE since this malaise began last June.
(After being swept in Philly the end of Aug, they won 9-of-10)
rookie mistakes
Milledge is now late for games with two different teams.
I think this is a pattern.
If he keeps this up he will be just another great prospect who has failed.
On another note.
check out minorleagueball.com
nice story on Mike Carp yesterday and on Friday their will be a story on Nelson Figueroa
Milledge has all the physical “tools” as they say, bat speed, explosiveness, quick wrists, etc., but I read in the Wahington Post some scout said that he pretty much has no clue how to play baseball. Sounds like he might be a bust, though I do wish him well. But very glad to have Church.
A couple of things:
Fiery managers do make a difference. So does shaking things up. There is plenty of recent history to prove it. In 2000, the Mets were playing lifeless ball. Phillips fired the whole coaching staff and the Mets went to the world series. Last year Pinella Aired out his team to the press and they responded with a division title. Leyland got in the tigers faces after a poor start, and they went to the series that year. Who are the winning managers? John McGraw, Earl Weaver and Bobby Cox.
Nice guys finish last, as Leo the Lip once pronounced. By the way where is Art Howe today?
Next thing: I will be attending the games this weekend in Arizona. The last few years this place has been a oasis for the Mets to get well. I dont expect that this year. The Dbacks are young, talented and hungry. There are no scrub pitchers to beat up on like Livan Hernandez. This will be a big test for our team.
Fiery coaching/management would go a long way to fixing this kind of problem, definitely.
The difficulty is when everyone on every level of the production is either all about or pressured into BEING all about… the whole professional even-keeled one-day-at-a-time thing.
The problem on the coaching side is that… Willie Randolph wants to be Joe Torre and… Joe Torre was only a good manager when he had an amazing team.
Whenever Joe Torre had a bad team or an average team or an above-average-but-not-great team? He sucked. Take the Dodgers… please.
That kind of managing only works when everything would’ve worked anyway.
No fire and terrible bullpen management. Woo-hoo.
The luster is coming off of Torres shine now isnt it? Clueless joe became a genius when he had those great teams. Even Willie would look smart with that group.
So Sadecki, the fiery managers are the winners…. Is that a rule or something? Why then is the most fiery, Larry Bowas a cd a team overachieve in 2000 and was gone in 202oach with no rings to show for his managerial stints. Why did Walter Alston last an eternity. He never showed fire. Gil Hodges barely spoke, yet he turned a team from 10th place to first in two years. How did he succeed? Blanket statements are always wrong. Different styles fit different situations and more often than not the fiery style wears off quickly. Valentine’s fire withered like a rose. LaSorda lasted as long as Alston despite a totally different style. I guess the guy in Boston is fiery guy NOT… He failed in Philly and is a hero in New England. Cox is totally different style than Piniella. Cox doesn’t beat on his players in public like sweet Lou. Maybe there are just too many guys in this clubhouse who can’t be motivated. Unless Willie is axed how could anyone really know?
It’s not this simple but I think two things would help, in terms of the team-chemsitry.
1)- having Pedro back and contributing in a meaningful way. He just lightens everything up and brings something to the team when he’s around. Yes, I know he was back in Sept and they still collapsed, but like so many have pointed out here, the last two weeks just underscored what was going on since last June 1, when he was nowhere near the team. IOW…it finally came home to roost.
2)- Delgado being flat-out released and not just because of his lack of productivity. I can’t put my finger on it what exactly it is about him, but I hear too many whispers about this guy’s lackadaisical attitude and such for it to not have SOME merit.
I agree completely with you, sloppy. Maybe a fiery manager would help, maybe not…but I don’t think that firing Randolph is going to cure what ails this team. It’s not that easy…they need to root out some issues from some of the PLAYERS first. I also think, that if a Delgado was released, it might send a message.
Too often, it looks like they need a heart. Not a heart TRANSPLANT, but a HEART.
um, john, from my impression, the Mets AREN’T happy with the way they’re playing, just look at any Billy Wagner or David Wright interview, they know they’re skirting by. Sure, they’ll take being in first place at the end of April (which they are now that the Marlins lost), and I too, as a fan, will take being in first place, but we all know, fans, the team knows, that this team can play a lot better. Do a few players need a wake up call? You bet, but I’m pretty sure the players on this team aren’t “happy” with what’s going on “Just because they’re in first” like you make it seem. That being said, i’ll take our position any day over being any other team in our division. Why? We’re in 1st.
Mike C., you say you want that youth, but what you fail to realize is, with that youth, we’d be a sub .500 team right now, we simply wouldn’t be very good. Milledge isn’t doing anything special, and both Church and Schneider have been great for us. Sure, Church is playing a bit over his head, but its a damn good player who will likely hit .280 for us, hit maybe 90-100 RBI’s if he keeps batting 5th, and will hit maybe 20 HRs, and play really amazing defense (something vastly overlooked in these parts). As for Schneider’s “injury after injury” what are you talking about? He was fine after he got over that hammy problem, which didn’t slow him down at all, he was hitting, and then he got this random infection from a blister that popped.
I don’t know if a fiery manager works in the long run. Leyland and Piniella are winners but how long do they last in one town (financial problems should be considered, especially
Leyland’s career). I think it would be a mistake for Randolph to try it: it would look phony and players easily see through that. With Leyland and Piniella it’s part of their personality
so it works.
maybe what this team needs is a core of homegrown Mets who the team rallies around. The Yankees have a huge payroll but their core of homegrown guys are Jeter, Rivera, Posada and until recently Williams. The Mets have Reyes who is in a funk no one can explain and Wright who is alright but kind of quiet. The Mets are a collection of parts that add up to a Frankenstein’s monster without the strength: The Phillies have Rollins, Burrell, Utley. The Braves in their heyday had Chipper and Andruw Jones, Glavine, Smoltz. You could build a winner around a foundation like those teams. There are exceptions, as there always aresuch as the recent Rod Sox although they are adding young talent to the imports.
John is right. The Mets are in a good position but all of last year it was “we’re in first place” until October and our season was gone. The team has something to prove in Arizona which looks to be the best NL team (wasn’t this team supposed to be “hours away from bankruptcy” according to Bud Selig five years ago?.
Sloppy,
Of course there are exceptions, and different situations require different things. This team is in definite need of a wake up call. We have had 2 stoic managers in a row. Howes that been working? The fans booing is a cry for change. This team has regressed, and its getting worse. You mentioned Bowa. Maybe he wore out his welcome in Philly, as all managers do, but I wouldnt mind seeing how he would do in charge of this group. It will never happen though because he may just be too honest for this ownership and front office. He might actually say something like “This team has some underachievers and thier lack of effort is an embarrasment to the fans and the organization. If I fail to instill a sense of urgency to this team, then I have failed to do my job.”
As for Gil Hodges-Tom Seaver has repeatedly said that Gil Hodges had great respect from all the players. His actions spoke. Can you imagine Willie coming on the field to yank one of his best players in the middle of a game for playing lazy? One last thing, Last week I saw Joe Torre get ejected from a game, protecting his player, that is something I still have not since from serene Willie even once in 3 plus years.
hey Ray, you ask, can I imagine Willie coming on the field to yank a player playing lazy? Yes i can, he did it too Reyes last year, and he ended up getting flamed for it from everyone. Now, i’m no huge Willie supporter, but it did happen.
I dont recall him coming out to the field to get Reyes. After the inning was over he sent out a repalacement. Thats a pretty big difference.
Metsfan: You “misremembered.” Randolph never came out of the field to pull Reyes for being lazy. He did it after the inning.-JD
One more take on Wagner’s trashing of Perez…
The problem isn’t necessarily the message, but the messenger. Billy Wagner is big on bluster and short on street cred.
Yes, Wagner has saved hundreds of games—but only three were registered in the postseason and only one in has come in a league championship series. He has never made the World Series.
According to baseballreference.com, Wagner has been on the losing side of five of six playoff series and in 11 postseason appearances, he has compiled an 8.71 ERA while surrendering 18 hits and 10 earned runs in 10.1 innings.
And while Wagner was compiling a 16.88 ERA in the 2006 NLCS in three appearances (in which he didn’t record a strikeout), Perez won NLCS Game 4 with the Mets trailing 2-1 in games and surrendered only one earned run over 6 innings in ano-decision in NLCS Game 7.
Purely based on statistics – save their legendary charisma—if any Mets pitchers have earned the chops to give the private verbal smackdown to a younger, less experienced teammate, it’s Pedro Martinez and El Duque.
Baseballreference.com shows Pedro has a 6-2 post-season record, including one World Series win, to go with a 3.40 ERA and has a ring to show for it. El Duque, meanwhile, has won four World Series rings and has gone 9-3 with a 2.55 ERA in the post-season.
But the problem is that neither El Duque nor Pedro is in the locker room now to counsel and admonish young starters like Perez, Pelfrey and John Maine. Perhaps Johan Santana hasn’t been as much of a mentor to Perez, Pelfrey and Maine as we all hoped.
But the saddest part, beyond Wagner’s potentially alienating Perez and other teammates is that perhaps the manager isn’t showing the strong leadership with his players he needs to.
Willie Randolph must quickly reclaim the reins on this team before meeting the dreadful fates of past Mets managers Davey Johnson, followed by the ineffectual likes of Bud Harrelson, Jeff Torborg and later, Art Howe.
Hey, We have all been clamoring for somebody to step up. Somebody finally did. Wagner was one of the few who spoke up last year. Too bad Pedro and El duque were hurt in ‘06 when WE needed them. There are plenty of critics here and I am one of them, but Wagner stepped up. I wish it was someone else, but nobody was willing.
I don’t mind if this team loses because they simply don’t have the talent or the skills, but “not showing up” (as Wagner said) is intolerable—if that is what they did.
I have to agree with Gil. The fact that Wagner is doing all the talking says something about the lack of leadership. Remember when Lo Duca made his comment about the rest of the guys being able to “speak English”? That too was a symptom of the problem. Then and now, this team is simply not a cohesive unit, so it’s not surprising that they don’t play like one.
Willie is a big part of the problem, but I think there are probably very few guys out there who could light a fire under this team. That guy would have to be some kind of miracle worker. The chemistry is simply not there. We need more passion and leadership from the players too.
To me, Willie already looks and sounds defeated. I think he has to go. He’s not the right manager for this team. We need someone who will bring more energy and enthusiasm and who is willing to call out the vets as well as the young guys. But we need a couple of players like that as well. At this point, I don’t care if they’re not .300 hitters, as long as they don’t roll over and die when the team is down a few runs late in the game.
I live in Japan, and I’ve had the pleasure of watching some high school baseball here. The kids battle (in the TRUE sense of the word) until the very last out! As much as I like our players, if they aren’t willing to do that for us, we’re better off just saying “good-bye”.
A guy who sits in the bullpen in the 7th and 8 th innings and watches the rest of the staff try to get out of big jams while all he is capable of doing is coming in with nobody on base is not the one to admonish anyone. Let him show his guts by coming in with 3 on and one out in the 8th before he blasts someone else. Why won’t he do it? Blemish his personal save %. Mr April has no right to blast anyone but himself until he becomes Mr October. The most me first guy on the team criticizing just doesn’t work. A guy who played with a broken face has the right to do it, not this guy.
Well,now you know Milledge’s value. He was Wagner whipping boy, He’s gone so now Wagner has found his next victim.
Ray: The reason Willie didn’t go out on the field to pull Reyes is because he wasn’t on the field right after the play in question. After the putout, Reyes went immediately back to the dugout. On the other hand, right after the play in which Hodges felt Jones didn’t hustle, Jones was still on the field. So the circumstances were different.
Apart from that, I don’t know how you can differentiate Willie’s action from what Hodges did. They were both done for the same reasons. They both called out and brought attention and embarrassment to the players. But whereas Hodges was hailed for his move, Willie has been vilified for his.
I think it’s debatable whether it was necessary to pull Reyes from that game. But IMO, Willie’s action is not the cause of Reyes’ long funk. Because as has been pointed out, the funk didn’t start till some time after the incident.
Wagner may be an ass, and he may not be well-liked by the other players, but really, I don’t see how his comments can make anything worse at this point. Before Wagner said anything, the Mets had played a month of baseball w/o focus, and it has cost them. Maybe they will all rally around their dislike of Wagner. I don’t know that it was right of Wagner to do this, but they need to rally around something.
Wow, so many great comments here. I’d like to address some recurring themes – re: Wags, I think after PLD left the team, there was no one with cajones left to tell it like it is. Wags may pitch one inning, but he’s the only one who doesn’t feel the need to play favorites, he can not be politically correct and hey – he also called Willie out on the mismanagement of the BP last year. Um, who else is going to speak up? Heilman, who gets flamed for wanting to start but never showing the goods to back it up and looks like he’s gonna cry on the mound every time he’s in a difficult spot. Feliciano – who the only time he ever spoke about Willie mismanaging him he was flamed? Who else is there? I admire Billy’s brass. I don’t care about his performances in the past – it’s here and now, he’s brought the goods to back it up.
As for Willie/Gil references – yes they are both quiet leaders, but Gil was a LEADER and had the respect of everyone. From day one, Willie has played favorites with the vets and never gained an ounce of their respect. And he treats the youngsters like doo-doo, like questioning their credibility (Figgy, Pagan) and yanking Reyes. I would have had no problem with him benching Jose for “lack of hustle” IF HE WAS CONSISTENT with the punishment for everyone. For example, I remember a time that Delgado didn’t run out a ball he thought was foul, was called out b/c it was fair and they threw him out at first…and Willie defended him to no end. Do you think Willie would walk to the outfield to yank one of his players like Gil did to Cleon Jones? Never.
On the other hand, I do remember Willie getting fired up. He got tossed out of two games in 2006 in one week – there was one game where Duaner Sanchez got tossed and he was all up in the ump’s faces. This is the Willie I like. He can’t be even-keeled all the time. He’s got to show some fire. Wasn’t there an incident a week or so ago against the Nats I believe that a runner on third caught a ball in play and he didn’t question it? This shows to me he has no clue. Furthermore, it also shows that Jerry Manuel has no clue. I think Manny Acta had more pull in that clubhouse than either Randolph or Manuel will ever have. Like someone else said, look at the 2000 Mets when Bobby V was forced with – we’ll fire you unless you agree to cut your staff. It was an ultimatum but it changed the dynamic of that team. I think the Mets need to do the same, promote Oberkfell, bring Gary Carter to the coaching staff, I say they can keep Nieto he’s the only one I like but in the spirit of cleaning house, let him go too – bring up Teufel, etc. If there’s one thing the Mets aren’t short on is experience personnel to right this ship. We need some guys who can kick butt here and now.
Agreed. And I’m glad he wouldn’t.
I don’t think any manager has done something like that since. Not Leyland or Johnson or Cox. Nor do I think they would under similar circumstances.
IMO, what Hodges did and Willie did was wrong. I think it would have been better to take the player behind closed doors and chew him out. Not embarrass him publicly.
Hodges’ action was even more humiliating to the player than what Willie did. So Willie should at least get credit for that.
I think you can blame Willie for many things and he certainly deserves his share, but let us say he wanted to shake up the team.
What are his options? Right now you do not punish Ollie for one bad game. You can criticize but not punish. You might replace someone for lack of production or lack of focus, the problem is there is no one to step up.
The backups are Easley and Anderson. Either could play 1B but would the team allow that for a 16 million $ man? If Castillo is deemed damaged goods, ditto for a guy with a new 4 year contract. You don’t want to do that to Jose because overall I think he has played good D although his plate approach sucks and obvious mental errors should be disciplined so you could take him out that game if you choose to .. if you think his ego can handle it.
Bottom line Willies hands are tied. The problem areas have few options. You do not replace a player without a reasonable expectation from the new guy.
how would willie have been able to pull him off the field, when Reyes was on offense and coming back to the dugout anyway? The point wasn’t that he physically went on the field, the point was that he was willing to remove a player from the game for being lazy, but whatever, go ahead and nitpick. As for Delcos, you’re just looking for places to confront me, so good job on that, i’m glad, me, a random poster on your blog, is able to rile you up enough that you have to find ways to refute what I say. Can’t help but say i’m satisfied with that. Thank you.
The problem here is a loss in confidence in the manager. They just don’t seem to be playing hard for him. In ‘06, everyone picked each other up, in ‘07 and so far in ‘08 the attitude seems to be like, “oh, well, we’ll get them tomorrow…its a long seasonâ€. Where was that team that gave you confidence that even down 3 runs they were still in it? This team only has one big inning a night and hopes that is enough to hold off the team, hence it seems like the bullpen blows it when they do lose.
I said it yesterday…Willie trusts his guys, but do they trust him? After the Collapse, I think its a resounding no.
“History repeats itself, first as tragedy then as farce.” Welcome to the farce, gentlemen!
Removing Reyes was one of the things Willie did that I liked. But then he got blamed for Joses uninspired play the rest of the year, so I dont expect to see that happen again. Todays player is a different breed, I guess. They make so much money, and entourages telling them how badly theyve been “dissed”. I concede the point that a manager has less power than they did years ago , and I dont put it all on the manager.
Maybe this team is not so good. What would the pitching staff look like now if Santana didnt fall into our lap? pretty scary. You cant fire the whole team though, and somebodys going to have to pay, or else the booing will just get worse.
On to tonites game.
It sounds like Scheinder will be back which probably means Molina is sent down which means Alou will be activated.
So that leads to a quandry for Willie.
Does Castillo who as been hitting bat 2nd? And does that mean Church bats 6th which means Delgado bats 7th? Or does he not want to embarass the vet and puts Delgado 6th and Church 7th which means you bat the guy who has been your most consistent performer-Church-7th.
I am assuming Alou bats 5th (which he should b/c Beltran needs him behind him-not seeing enough good pitches).
If any of you have time please read Tim Marchman’s column in today’s New York Sun.
You will either think he nailed on the head or he is out in left field.
Please let me know what you think.
I hope Willie gets fired… not because he deserves it, because he doesn’t, but to show people how little effect a new manager will have on the team..
NY Cuban, you say on MetsBlog that Willie “led” this team to the collapse… It isn’t true… What led to this team’s collapse was the horrendous offseason before by the Great Omar Minaya…. Instead of signing someone like Carlos Lee or Alfonso Soriano, he decides to sign Piss-On-My-Hands-Lou who can’t even walk without breaking something… He decided to keep The Stone Guardian in RF, even though he can’t hit for power or against lefties, and is an abominable fielder… As for the pitching… He elects not to resign one of our best relievers because it cost too much, and instead signs a terrible reliever for even more money… He also decides to sign a steroid using loser to a 2 YEAR DEAL… Mr. Minaya then decides not do upgrade our rotation at all, and sticks Willie witb a 40 year old nibbler, “The Wild Thing”, a guy who was a throw in to the Benson deal, a man whose age could only be found in the Bermuda Triangle, and an assortment of crap stuck to the wall..And most importantly; Minaya decided to clean out all our depth, for nothing in return…
Then at the deadline, instead of getting a reliever we desperately needed, he gets a 2B we didn’t need, and he gets NO pitching help..
Combine that with the freefall of Delgado, Reyes not showing up in the 2nd half, and the way the pitching was set up, and you have a team that completely overacheived….
Finally, if Willie has to go, then he has to go, but Omar Minaya better be riding his coattails…
Josh, I agree Willie needs to go with Omar on high notice. If at the end of this season, the team has failed again, then it is time to say good-bye to Omar. And as for your comment about the Collapse…if you are up 7 games with 17 games to play and you have 6 games to end the season against the Nats and Marlins, you need to place some blame on the manager. If the team was good enough to be up 7 games in division (and predicted to walk way with NL), then it should have held onto that lead. The day to day managing has to fall on Willie…and he failed miserably.
Scott: I don’t think it was an opinion that is shocking by any means. I think Omar is more to blame for giving Willie and making him count on an over the hill 1bman, a gimpy 2bman, and a brittle left fielder, a number 2 starter coming off serious injury, who we all knew coming into the season WERE exactly those kinds of players. It’s also not Willie’s fault that Beltran and Reyes and to a smaller extent, D.Wright have not been offensive forces. So in a nutshell, I blame Omar more.
That gimpy second baseman is third among NL second baseman in OBP, behind Utley and DeRosa. OBP is why Castillo is here—and he’s doing a good job of it, gimpy knees and all.
Tiffany: The Mets have played a month of the season and he has asked for days off already. He’s committed a crucial error the other day and couldn’t lay down a squeeze bunt the night before. He’s on a nice little streak now which is why they should keep him IMO in the 2 hole. But he is a guy who I don’t think the Mets can count on healthwise.
I blame Castillo’s error the other day on Oliver Perez.
Perez walked so many guys that this in part caused Castillo to zone out during the game.
You may think my opinion is wrong but did you know that Perez had more unearned runs scored on him than any other Met pitcher last year.
Scott: No one’s opinion is “wrong.” I just totally completely disagree with it.
Wow Scott from Pelham that was a very very mean thing to say about a metsie. Do you think Castillo is too stupid to pay attention for a little while or is he too old too pay attention for a little while. Every metsie fan now hates Oliver Perez and Carlos Delgado…....and Aaron heilmann and Jorge Sosa…. and…..
Scott,
IMO that SUN article was spot on.
Wow, cool man, big thanks! http://uobxgfpuef.com