Mets Chat Room: Alou could have fracture
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- April
- 27
And, the hits keep on coming …
GM Omar Minaya said Moises Alou had a CT scan that “showed something.’’ That something, Minaya said, could be a fracture. He’ll be in NY tomorrow for a MRI. A show of hands from anybody not surprised by this.
And Brian Schneider will be in the hospital another day.
And, finally, the hits kept coming in the game, too. The Mets scored in five innings to beat the Braves.
IN A NUTSHELL, Mets 6, Atlanta 3
Two games in a row the offense has clicked.
IN THE CLUBHOUSE
Willie Randolph on Carlos Delgado: “I said he’ll have a good year. Hopefully, this is a start for him.’’
Ryan Church on his catch against the wall: “I felt I had a chance for it. It was up there high enough.’’
Carlos Delgado on not taking a curtain call: “I have a great deal of respect for the game. I didn’t think it was the right situation for it.’’
IN-GAME ANALYSIS
1ST INNING: Jose Reyes doubles and took third on a grounder. That put him in position to score on a wild pitch. We’ve been waiting for that Reyes. Mets 1, Atlanta 0.
2ND INNING: Raul Casanova homers, but they miss a chance to break the game open when David Wright leaves the bases loaded. Mets 3, Atlanta 0.
3RD INNING: Carlos Delgado is loved again … at least for one more day. Mets 4, Atlanta 0.
6TH INNING: They stick with Nelson Figueroa too long, but Wright gets a run back. Mets 5, Atlanta 3.
9TH INNING: Billy Wagner gets his sixth save. Mets 6, Atlanta 3.
NOTEBOOK
-Alou will have exam tomorrow to see if he has fracture in left ankle.
-Schneider is to be released from hospital tomorrow.
-Closer Billy Wagner gave up his first his of the season.
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on Sunday, April 27th, 2008 at 12:17 pm by John Delcos.
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No Surprise from me. The only surprise to me was Omar paying Alou another year and El Duke for that matter.
If Alou really does have a fracture, you think the Mets would consider signing Bonds???
Time to move on with El Duque and Alou, the money isn’t an issue. I understand having a hard time swallowing Delgado 20mil but there’s no excuse with the other two. The longer we wait to see if they come back the less options we have.
edfever: I agree, but they’ll hang on in the hope of getting a hot moment to justify the contract. They could have had each for one year. Two was a bad move.-JD
Here’s something I’ll never understand. Why boo Carlos Delgado during the introductions? It’s your dollar, but it makes no sense. If the Mets are your team, why boo their players? It won’t make them play any better. I would only boo if the guy doesn’t hustle, but that’s me. I’ll never get the boo mentality.-JD
To Josh: No way on Bonds. I would like to modify my previous comment. Feel free to boo somebody who is a jerk. That would be Bonds.-JD
Not good news on Alou, but no surprise of course. The guy is made of tissue paper. Assuming Alou just doesn’t play at all this season – not an unreasonable assumption at this rate – the Mets need a bat. Delgado is finished – DONE! – which leaves Wright and Beltran as the only proven run producers in that lineup. I’m not suggesting that bat is available to be had, which is why I’m very concerned about the offense. And the starters. And the pen.
If the Yanks and Phils combined to win 20 World Series in a row, I would still hate the Braves more. Man I don’t like them.
That’s the Reyes we’ve been looking for on the play at third.-JD
Gotta get the run in there. Bad news.
smoltz looks really uncomfortable out there. i don’t think he’s long for this game.
for as uneven as the mets have looked so far, neither the braves or phils are going to be running away with the division.
Smoltz looks horrible today… except against David Wright…
Everyone is probably pretty excited, but the Braves can put up runs, and Figueroa is not going to throw a CG. Mets need to keep the pressure on! They pulled this on a nightly basis last September, so they need to tighten the grip now.
Smoltz is definitely injured, if he’s giving up hits to Delgado…
I know this is a pipe dream, but how good would Xavier Nady look if he were still with this team…
Mackey: Who would you rather have, Nady or Perez?-JD
i think Nady just went out the window with the Matt Morris release…... If a trade doesnt hurt both sides it wasn’t good, to get Nady we would have to eat Morris contract and give up Niese (to start). Now Nady will go to the highest bidder at the deadline which we aren’t, you want a guy from Pitt. were looking at super utility Chris Gomez which we already have in easley
what would berkman cost if the astros fall out
Would rather have Perez, as inconsistent as he has been. Add in the fact that Nady just isn’t a special player and the trade worked out well.
JD: That’s a really tough question… My guess is if they didn’t have Perez, they probably wouldn’t have traded Bannister in the offseason (although no way to really say).
So, the question is, what would you rather have:
Perez and (Alou/Endy/Pagan or whatever warm body we can find for LF) and an upcoming huge contract to resign Perez (justifiable or not, it’s happening)
OR
Nady and Bannister and several non-arbitration years of Bannister
The second one sounds much more appealing to me.
David Wright has no idea about Smoltz.
David wright has no idea for more than a week now, must be taking lessons from Jose Reyes.
Hello from DC – It is despicable that you are not here now. C’mon got to take the good with the bad, which are the opposite in your case.
Gotta have my Metsies, Need my Metsies.
Nice game from Figeroa right now. Hope I am not jinxing him but he has done well for the Metsies so far!!!
It’s one of those “gotta love baseball” tropes when the Mets can’t sniff Jair Jurrjens, but smack around Hudson and Smoltz, all in 3 consecutive days.
Are you wearing a brown coat, John? It looks like you’re getting a lot of face time on the Braves broadcast.
We’re in the sixth and I would say Figueroa’s tank is hitting on empty. Two runs in. Don’t know what they are waiting for.-JD
Joe Smith coming in. I would say a batter too late, but here he comes.-JD
Terrible job by Figueroa. He’s given a 4 run lead to start the inning, and he can only get 1 out…
Josh,
Figeuroa is doing this w/ smoke and mirrors. He’s given this team a chance in every game, and that’s all you can ask of your 5th starter.
A batter too late is when Willie lifts Heilman after he serves up the big fly. At that point, you might as well leave him in, no?
Hi Tiffany: Yes, I am. I hope I wasn’t scratching myself at the time.-JD
JD,
Do you have concerns that this pen is being burned out? I’m not suggesting Willie has a choice but to got to them, but it seems like a big load that could effect them down the line.
Don’t worry, John, you and your brethern were being praised in glowing terms by the Braves announcers. According to their version of it, Willie describes dealing with the beat writers as “walking the plank.” Ahoy, indeed.
By the way, Castillo is clearly washed up. Any way we can eat that contract and take a longer look at Anderson Hernandez?
To JM: That’s a very real concern. The pen is working 3 to 4 innings a game. Way too many.-JD
Gotta get this run now David…
Beautiful AB for David.
WOW…. What a catch by Church… So much better than Green….
Church is a scrub from a last-place team who can’t hit lefty…
I can’t believe how much this starting staff SUCKS outside of Santana. These guys are seriously pathetic. None of these guys can go more than 5 innings….and the rare occasion that they actually do reach 6 it’s a big deal. These guys are horrendous
tiffany,
did church rape your dog or something? you seem to have a very personal distaste for someone who has been in my opinion the early season mvp for the mets.
JM: I think Willie was a little too trigger happy with going the pen early on but yeah he has no choice now. This really has to be addressed…I’d love to see the total innings pitched by mets starters vs the rest of the league…they have to near the bottom. I’ve never seen anything so pathetic
Did I mention that Church never slides in the outfield?
Holy crap, Delgado smoked that one… but he’s an ass for not taking the curtain call…
They want Delgado to take a curtain call and he won’t. Then came some boos.-JD
Alex: Gees calm down. She was clearly being sarcastic.
Alex: Tiffany is a master at sarcasm.-JD
Delgado is being a baby. Clearly he’s pissed that the fans have been hating on him for the past few weeks, but it’s not like he gave any of us any reason to cheer him…forget about his crappy hitting…his mental errors in the field alone are justification for being booed.
To Josh: Yeah, it would have been nice to take the bow. Doesn’t help him any not to.-JD
It’s funny how when one of the “luminaries” of this blog says these things about Church, it’s OK, but when I recite the same criticisms—word for word, mind you (I’m not even original enough to change anything)—it always comes down to gender issues like old boyfriends or questions about rape. Why is that?
If Sanchez comes in it’s another example of the fact that Randolph has NO CLUE how to manage pitchers. It’s a 3 run game…there is no reason to do that. Felciano is someone who (normally) is capable of getting both righties and lefties out…bringing Sanchez right now just unnecessarily taxes an arm that’s just getting used to the rigors of an MLB season
my apologies then.
clearly sarcasm doesn’t always translate well when used in written form.
though i suppose the same could be said for jokes about dog rape, as i was also not intending to upset anyone RMK and was feeling very calm when i wrote it.
Thats a big, big mistake by Carlos.
I suppose he really does enjoy being booed.
By the tenor of the consensus on this blog you would never know if your team is winning or losing. Couple of points.
What more could you ask of figeroa? I mean really – he did a nice job. Especially considering he was never slated to be more than an emergency starter. As far as I am concerned—kudos are in order.
Delgado—He is not an ass for not taking the curtain call at all. He has been really awful lately and I don’t think that he feels he deserves one yet.
Shoeneweis (or however you spell it) not one compliment for him after all the crap he took. He has been looking good this year but nothing.
And Feliciano does a 123 inning.
Moises Alou is already taking crap and he isn’t here. They guy is in his 40s what do you expect? I know because I am too.
Another note, as much as I like beating the guy – I hope that Smoltz is OK
Good…no Sanchez there. This team really needs Santana to go out and throw a strong 8 inning game or something to that effect tomorrow. The pen needs a rest. And the rest of this starting staff needs to really stop picking their noses out on the mound and keep their focus.
Perez is especially the worst…he reminds me of Al Leiter in his last couple yrs with the team…he just throws and hopes it goes into the strike zone. He clearly is taking some major steps backwards…I can’t believe this guy thinks he’s worth major money. At this point, I’d say good riddance at the end of the year if he leaves…I’d rather a guy that can at least give the team some innings
I could care less if Delgado’s comes out for a curtain call or not. I just want him to earn his 16 mil and hit his 30 home runs with 100+ rbi.
RMK – He is giving you a reason not to boo. He is a NY Met. That’s all the readson I need. How would any of us perform day in and day out on our job being booed?
Chickens, I can handle…but not dog rape…never…
CLM,
” Another note, as much as I like beating the guy – I hope that Smoltz is OK”.
You gotta be kidding me, I hope his arm falls off, screw Smoltz and the Braves.
Figueroa threw 5.1 innings…these guys need to start going deeper into games. I dont care what his role was supposed to be before the season…the fact of the matter is that there is only one starter on this staff that seems capable of a “quality” start. Combine that with Randolph’s love for using 6 pitchers over 2 innings, and you’re looking a pen that will be full of dead arms by the allstar break
tiffany,
wow.
1. my comments were completely gender neutral, and i would ask them to anyone who thought that church was a scrub.
2. i didn’t realize this blog had any “luminaries.”
and
3. i apologize for my comments about DOG rape. while seemingly innocuous, it clearly wasn’t taken as such…thus, i am sorry.
then in the future i will stick to chicken or other fowl for my rape jokes.
CLM: Yeah TODAY he gave us a reason not to boo. But his mental errros in the field and poor defense were major reasons to boo, +/- the lack of clutch hitting. My point is that if he’s going to hold a grudge about it, he’s way off base…if there’s one thing that should not be tolerated it’s lack of effort and lackadasical play.
I agree that it woulb be quite a benefit to go more than 5 innings. Show me a team that isn’t having the same issue?
Wow…I feel like there’s been a lot of balls in this game hit to the warning track by the Braves
clm: I haven’t looked around so I’m not going to say there aren’t other teams with this issue. Fact of the matter though is that this team has high expectations and was touting it’s starting staff and only one of them can produce quality starts. That’s just not going to get it done if championships are the real goal
It’s amazing how much the Braves are a different team with Chipper Jones out of the lineup.
RMK – I agree that the starters need to start going deeper. That being said Figeroa deserves a lot of credit for the job he has done this year. I am more concerned with Maine who still has focus problems.
As far as Perez he is what he is and I don’t believe it is going to change. Pelfrey – very young.
But burning out the bullpen? Not if the load can be spread correctly. I don’t think you should be pitching anyone more than three days in a row. Maybe the closer.
2 out 3 at home against the Braves is what you gotta do and they did it.
12-7 against the NL East.
But if Alou is out, the Mets are gonna have a hard time scoring runs.
I fear that Omar w/his job possibly on the line might trade away what ever is left in the minors for someone to play left.
Maybe the long term ramifications will be that Omar will stay away from older guys….well maybe not….
Met SP is killing the BP. Maine and OP have to start giving 6++.
Hey … How come the DC troll never warned us how good Church can be? He might never be an all-star, but he does everything well. He plays hard, fields well, hits well, runs the bases well, and appears to be a good teammate. Moreover, he has a working alarm clock and wears a watch! What more can you ask for?
It’s especially nice to have someone in RF who can field well. Church is a much better fielder than Lastings, Green and Nady.
No question, good assessment of Church. Will be a few years before you can assess the Milledge trade, but glad to have Church on board.
To Alex: Very well done on your note to Tiffany.-JD
By the way folks. As for Delgado not taking the curtain call, he said he’s taken only two in his entire career. He said ``I have respect for the game,’’ and doesn’t believe he did anything that warranted taking a bow and didn’t want to show up the Braves.-JD
i gotta side with Delgado on this one, the fans just wanted a curtain call so they could feel like they were now going to back Delgado, which I find rather pathetic. Sure, the guy couldn’t hit for a while, and who knows if this game means anything anyway, but fans were booing him relentlessly, I mean, the guy wants to hit, its just not working out for him anymore. They boo him this game, and then all of a sudden all he does is hit a couple homers in a game in April that they would have won either way, and now he’s the hero? He gets the cheers? It’s pathetic to me, fans just do this kind of stuff for their own selfish reasons, for whatever sense of entitlement they have. All in all, Delgado is right, curtain calls should be reserved for when someone does something special, there shoudldn’t be these “let’s make up cause I said it was alright to” curtain calls from the fans, fans should support the players on their team. Delgado’s trying, he’s just not getting results.
Carlos Delgado doesn’t want to show up the Braves, but he did his handshake with Reyes outside of the dugout?! That doesn’t add up. I have no problem at all showing up the Braves, but don’t say one thing and do the other. I’m sure the Braves aren’t thrilled with him doing the handshake twice outside of the dugout. He should just be honest and say we, the fans, are too hard on him and he doesn’t like that.
Have to give credit to Omar for pulling Figgy and Casanova off the scrap heap.
http://www.metsmonkeys.blogspot.com
http://www.cafepress.com/antiyank
Have to give credit to Omar for pulling Figgy and Casanova off the scrap heap.
http://www.metsmonkeys.blogspot.com
I guess I’m bad luck for Carlos Delgado. Don’t watch today’s game and he hits two homeruns..
I see Figueroa only lasted 5 1/3 inning.. It’s a win, but this team needs length out of their starters.
The standard is not the same for Nelson Figeuroa and John Maine for example. If Figeuroa gives you 5 and a chance to win, he did his job as a 5th starter. Guys like Maine and Perez have enough pure talent that it is fair to expect more of them. When they can’t make it outta the 6th, it’s usually b/c they wander into space once an inning and end up walking people. Figgy did a good job today, but I wouldn’t say the same for Santana if he only goes 5 tomorrow.
Tomg – Much as I hate the Braves I love the game of baseball. Ever since I have seen Tom Seaver I also love power putchers and I love people that play the game right. That is John Smoltz to a T. I’m telling you he has done everything his team has asked, start, close, start again, whatever. He does it right and never cries or shows up his team mates. That being the case – I hope that his health is not an issue, or that he is not injured.
Now Chipper Jones? Don’t want him to be hurt either – but I sure love it when he sits.
Hooray for Carlos Delgado.. you “despicable” metsies treat him like a piece of manure and then you want him to give you a curtain call…. He is the best metsie ever….
For once metsfan you are a smart metsfan… The metsies were “despicable all year to poor Carlos, so why should he forgive them … Why don’t they cheer him when he’s srtruggling? Because Metsie fans are”despicable.” Just ask JK.
Hooray for Delgado!!!!!!
Dalgado for President… Well I don’t want him taking my job and going around raising all the gas prices.
Vote for 4 more years so gas can go up to 15 bucks a gallon….
Love and kisses all of you that are or want to be me and especially to Tiffany. Remember metsfan we are buddies, I luv you bro!!!! You can change the gas price signs on Longgggggggg Island if you want to.
I really hope a big deal isn’t made out of Delgado not coming out for the curtain call. I don’t know if today means he is gonna come around – I doubt it – but if there is any chance of that happening he doesn’t people heckling him for another reason.
Any chance Omar will extend Alou for one more season? He should be ready to go by next April, I’m sure…
Classic paulunde, classic.
hellofromDC has been derailed. Does anyone know why he’s talking about gas prices?
Alou must’ve had a pea under his twenty mattresses after all.
Delgado’ll have a good game or two, here and there, that’s not the issue, that’s not the problem.
He’ll have days when his body doesn’t feel the age and the 15,000 little injuries so much and… yeah, he’ll do that.
And it’ll ultimately make the problem even worse because that means that on the other 80% of the days, he’ll just keep on swinging like he’s still twenty-nine and give us another five hundred flyballs two steps short of the warning track that accomplish nothing.
You get busy getting younger or you get busy getting older.
When will the Mets learn?
Mike C, it would be great if the Mets had a bunch of 25 year old guys on the team that you did not have to think might break something or wake up w/a stiff leg or arm or neck or whatever but how do the Mets get younger when they have almost no young talent now and have a history of not developing young talent?
Just look at the Braves. They bring in these guys Prado and Liilenbridge to spot start. Those guys are better than anything the Mets have in their system (except maybe FMart), and they aren’t even the best guys Atl has.
Where are all the all stars they let get away?
If you don’t draft or sign and develop young talent, you can talk about it all you want, but if the Mets were made up of players from within, they would stink. And they would stink for a long time b/c they have little history of developing players.
The Mets are not the Braves. They are not the Twins, or Angels or even the Yanks or Sox when it comes to talent evaluation. I wish they were.
To complain all the time that they should have younger guys is fine, but how much complaining would you be doing when they finished dead last yr after yr b/c they decided to have young guys who are not ML capable let alone everyday players or all stars.
Name 10 everday players the Mets traded away over the last 5 yrs.
Maybe there are 3-Kazmir, Bannister, Bell. Maybe you could add to that list Jacobs, Bay, Milledge and Gomez (jury still out in my opinion on the last 2). I’m sure people will come up w/a few more names, but do any of these guys get you so upset that they are not Mets anymore? Maybe Bannister. Maybe Bell (but only if Bud Black had been the Mets picthing coach and had taught him that slider he has now).
And interestingly, these guys all play for bad teams. So would they be playing everday for a good team?
Unless the Mets hire a GM who knows how to evaluate young talent, they are going to have guys like Alou and Delgado.
I just hope they sign a few younger guys this off season like Teixera and keep OP (if he has a decent yr).
JM: I am so happy you are concerned about me… But don’t you read this blog regualrly. I’m not concerned about the gas prices. I want Delcos top have clear sailing when he drives his gas guzzling rental to the park every night. See, Delcos don’t like the metro and I love the metro and I love Delcos and I want him happy so when I spend my last 8 months in office raising prices every day eventually Delcos will have an empty road to have a fun trip to all the parks he goes to. Why don’t you want to be nice to Delcos. Do you boo him like you boo all the metsies?
And what’s with you Metsies anyway? This Mr Scoopy guy has written a book up there to pick on poor little Mike C who likes young people so Mr scoopy must be a hater of young people or a lover of old people.. I just don’t know why you metsie fans so called fight no matter what. fight when you win fight when you lose… Its a sickness and that wonderful JK named it the “despicable” metsie fan illness and that’s what it is, an illness born and bred from your being # 3 in NYC forever, behind the NYYANKEES and BROOKLYN DODGERS, forever poor metsies. its so sad…...
love and kisses from all of us…...W etc
clm,
apparently Smoltz’s shoulder was hurting him yesterday. Smoltz’s has had a shoulder problem on and off through his career but it has gotten allot worse the past few years. Smoltz’s was already on the disabled list before the season started this year and I would expect Smoltz to go back on the disabled list.
They boo the crap out of the guy, then they want him to come out and take a bow. forget it, i wouldnt either.
“Maybe there are 3-Kazmir, Bannister, Bell. Maybe you could add to that list Jacobs, Bay, Milledge and Gomez (jury still out in my opinion on the last 2). I’m sure people will come up w/a few more names, but do any of these guys get you so upset that they are not Mets anymore? Maybe Bannister. Maybe Bell (but only if Bud Black had been the Mets picthing coach and had taught him that slider he has now).”
Keppinger. Wigginton. Flores. Lindstrom. Nady. There’s 5 more.
Kazmir is obvious. Of course you would want him back.
Yes, Bannister would be a starter on the Mets, or almost any other team in baseball. He has shown himself to be a solid MLB pitcher.
Bay kind of came out of nowhere, so I’m not going to whine about him. Not whining about Jacobs either because that deal for Delgado was a no-brainer at the time. Same idea for Gomez. We got Johan for him. You make that deal every day and twice on Sunday.
I always liked Bell, but as many have pointed out, he may not have worked out here because of his tenuous relationship with Peterson. So, as much as I bellyached… I can’t complain TOO much about losing Bell.
As many know, I liked Milledge, but I doubt he’ll be Andruw Jones. Best case scenario for him is Torii Hunter, but he very well could end up being Gary Matthews Jr. Plus, I thought Church and Schneider addressed two needs going into this season.
As for the guys I mentioned, I’ll address them generally, and then quickly individually. I often see people make the statement: “what All Stars have we traded away?” in response to complaints about the Mets not developing young players. Here’s the thing, we don’t need All Stars. We need solid, league average talent who will be everyday players and support our stars (Wright, Reyes, and Beltran). Right now, we have Pagan out there and he’s barely above replacement level. Ditto for Castillo. Further, our bench sucks. It would be nice to have some hungry young guys with some upside on the bench instead of “one trick ponies.”
Keppinger: While he may not start if he was on the Mets, he would be a super valuable backup. The guy can play all IF positions and he gets on base. The Mets never gave this guy a chance.
Wigginton: See Keppinger, re: able to play all IF positions (except SS). This guy would also be a perfect bench guy/UTIL player for the Mets. He could spell Delgado against lefties, and I am sure he could play a corner OF spot. Plus, he could even give you some time at 2B. We traded him for Benson, who was never the same after TJ surgery. And please don’t make the argument: “well, we got Maine for Benson.” There was no way of knowing this at the time we made this trade, so the fact that we got Maine for Benson is irrelevant in assessing that trade. Oh yeah, don’t forget the Mets really weren’t that good and Duquette panicked in making two dumbass trades instead of staying the course.
Flores: Probably wouldn’t be starting this year, but I still wish he had him. He would be our C of the future. Ridiculous arm (his release is insanely quick). Great footwork behind the plate and pretty impressive power for a young C. There is no way he should have been exposed to the Rule 5 draft. We had Soler on the 40 man instead of him… and Soler was released like 2 weeks later.
Lindstrom: This trade was just dumb. We just let one of our more effective relievers walk (Bradford) and we traded our swing reliever who would come up when we needed an arm in the pen (Bell). Why we would trade a guy who Keith Law raved about after a dominating performance in the Futures Game, sporting a fastball that could touch triple digits and a slider he finally seemed to get a hold of, is beyond me.
Nady: Now Nady’s inclusion may seem curious. However, this was also a panic trade. Yes, Perez has been great for us, but did we really need to trade our 25 year old starting RF for a 40+ year old RP who was about to be a FA/retire and a former prodigy who had completely lost it and had been sent to AAA? This is the ultimate example of the Mets completely undervaluing a dude who is just a solid MLB ballplayer. Since Nady didn’t project to be an All Star and they had these “sexy” 5-tool OF prospects, the Mets figured that overpaying for Hernandez and Perez with Nady wasn’t a big deal. Wrong.
However, despite this rant, it seems like the Mets are correcting this flawed thinking. They traded a much hyped 5-tooler in Milledge for two very solid ballplayers. If they had some more players like Church and Nady instead of guys like Pagan, Castillo, and even Delgado, they would be in very good shape right now.
Think about it. Imagine if we had Nady in LF, Keppinger at 2B, and Wiggy at 1B. Wouldn’t that make the lineup really solid? We may be a bit RH heavy in that case, but we would have more consistent guys who would be in the lineup everyday without having to worry about old age or injury (and yes I know Wiggy is injured, but that is more of a bizarre injury than anything.)
For those that are upset with the starter’s length in games – from Willie –
“Once we become more consistent getting hits and scoring runs, we’ll take some pressure off our bullpen and maybe give our starters a chance to go a little longer – which (also) will take pressure off our bullpen,” Willie Randolph said.
Makes sense to me. If you only have a two run lead when your starter is in the 5th inning and faltering a little it means taking him out. If you have 4 runs you have a little room to manuever.
Hello from DC – Welcome back. You are right – you cannot even tell when the METS are winning on this blog that’s how awful it is. And at Shea? Even worse. Looking at time anonymous quotes from the players in the paper this morning – one sticks out – “Do they think it helps?” Meaning the booing at Shea? All the little Metsies are to critical. I mean it’s baseball, can’t we all just have some fun. This time of year even Pirates’ fans are optimistic.
I know I’ll get killed for that post but for just once on a winning night I’d love to see an upbeat blog.
CLM,
It’s not the met fans, it’s new york fans period. I here the yankee fans complaining all the time on WFAN, there even worse and they have a 200+ payroll and still aren’t happy, they want more.
CLM, they’re 13-11, the Marlins are in first…
And most of the team is either injured, has been injured this season already, was playing way over his head and is coming back to Earth or is sputtering out from too many injuries all finally catching up to him.
To be upbeat at this juncture would be to be either deluded or liars.
clm….
you are such a good little metsie….They don’t deserve you….. if you stick with us and give it a year or two or three or four or fifty you can root for a team who’s fans aren’t “despicable”....
question for the metsie fans: Ever go to a game in your parking lot field? How much you pay for tickets, food beer, parking, gas, rip off parking lot fees… rip off bridge and tunnel fees…. how much do you pay to go to a game and have a bad timne…???? 100 bucks? 200 bucks????
1000 bucks??? why can’t metsies have a good time???
We all know why!!!!! I’ll be nice and won’t repeat.. You know why too!!!
keith,
to me an everyday player is somebody who hits above avg ML and is at least avg defensively.
Plus, I was talking about guys who were Mets prospects. You pick a couple of guys in your list that came from elsewhere along w/3 Mets. So to me, 2 of them (Kepp, nady) don’t count.
Especially Nady since he was already an established player. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want him back. He is probably the only position player who is fairly complete (offensively, defensively). And it is interesting that he is the one on your list who did not come from the Mets (more indictment against Mets ability to develop players). And supposedly Omar had no choice but to trade him b/c word was out that Snachez was hurt so Bucs had him over a barrel.
As for Wigginton. He can’t field. So to me he is not an everyday player. Nor is Keppinger (who was not a Met Minor leaguer anyway). If they played the left side of the IF, everyone would be complaing about the # missed DP and dropped throws from Wright.
And Bay barley meets the 2nd criteria, but at least until last yr his hitting was so good you could look the other way at his fielding.
The jury is still out on Lindstrom and especially Flores (he is back in AA).
So when you boil it down it is a sad list of guys who can be at best platoon guys.
And Milledge. I think you are dreaming if you think this guy is a gold glove OF like Mathews or Hunter. And he doesn’t have either ones team-first attitude to boot.
Hence, when anyone brings up the old guys I have to ask what is the alternative? If the best they could have right now from w/in is Wigginton and Bay (who nobody predicted would amount to anything), that is not good.
Mr Scoopy you are so funny…. the jury is always out on ex mets but the jury is in on current metsies. you little metsies know in 15% of the season which metsies suck and which don’t. But ex metsies have to prove themselves forever or longer!!!!! HAHAHAHA
I love you almost as much as clm!!!!!!!!
Scoop: your comments on good farm systems of the Twins & Braves is a little off. The Twins system was so bad that after the Santana trade all 4 Mets guys made their top 10.
As far as the Braves have they developed a good pitcher in the last 5 years. One also seems to forget during the Braves glory years they were big spenders and always brought in free agents to fill needs. Now they do not have that money to spend and see where they are.
Also on the Angels with their great system have actually overvalued their talent at times and not pulled a trigger on trades. Some of their talent has now gone down in value or has become worth very little. They have also spent big money on two CF in the last two years.
Please don’t make these teams out to be so much smarter than the Mets during the last three years.
“To be upbeat at this juncture would be to be either deluded or liars.”
What an incredibly stupid remark….
Scott P, whether I am off or not on what these teams farms are today, the fact remains that the Mets farm sys is bad now and has been worse than most over the course of the teams 45 yrs. I was not talking just about now when I mentioned those teams. I was talking about over yrs of time.
1 HOF in Mets history, and very few home grown AS. That says it all.
And as far as the Braves. Yes they have not developed many picthers lately (thank god). But how about Chipper, Escobar, Johnson, Francouer, McCann, and probably a dozen more guys down in Richmond etc. that would put Mets farm to shame. Oh, and A Jones, and LaRouche too. 2 yrs ago every pos player was home grown for Braves. And they were all good or great.
Scoop
Of course the Braves were one of the worst organizations in baseball for the 20 years before they became so good.
Also the Mets in the 80’s had the best minor league system in baseball. This you do not remember. I know the Wild Card did not exist then but if it had the Mets would have made the post season just about every year from 84-91
Also the Mets had plenty of pitching All Stars what they did not have was hitters. The ballpark ( Shea ) was also part of the reason. Hitting numbers have always been depressed by Shea. It takes an extraordinary player to overcome this.
How do you know when the page has turned and the organization is getting better ? I have no idea and neither do you. If you think Omar is not the man to fix this fine,
but the team has not been run by the same management for the last 45 years and to equate the mistakes of the 60’s 70’s and 90’s all on Omar is stupid.
It is truly amazing to read all this negativity on a day when the Mets won. Why is this ?
I did not forget the 80s. But over 45 yrs, they have a very limited player development. You can’t dispute that the number of everyday players can be counted on one hand and the number of SP can be counted on the other. That is not alot to show for 45 yrs.
I was countering people who think that all would be better if the Mets just tried to keep all their young talent by stating that would be impossible since they have no young talent now nor have they had much young talent in 45 yrs.
Actually they have some talent at AA.
Carp, Murphy, Evans and F-Mart are doing really well.
+ Neise and Kunz
They also seem to be doing ok at low A Savanah
I not sure what the deal is at St Lucie
So things are getting better.
The Problem is AAA sucks big time.
I did not say it was bare but besides FMart none of those guys are a given to be a major leaguer.
Well Scoop when you narrow the criteria like that, it kind of makes things difficult. Kepp came over in a minor league deal, so I’m counting him. He’s been starting at SS for Cincy under Dusty Baker, a super old school manager, and is doing a fine job.
As for Wiggy, he’s been a starter the last two seasons, and posted a 107 OPS+ in both seasons. That means he is a hair above MLB average. Houston made him their starting 3B this past offseason.
Of course the jury is still out on Flores and Lindstrom, but you can’t tell me you wouldn’t rather have them in the org than have given them away from nothing.
And Nady was far from an “established player” when we acquired him. We got him for Bell and Ring for crying out loud. Two guys, by everyone’s account, stunk here. Plus, he had to beat out Victor freaking Diaz for the RF spot in spring training in ‘06.
As for Milledge, did I say he would be a gold glove player? I said I envision him as a Matthews level player. As in comparable value… not an exact replica.
To be frank, both the organization and your attitude towards these kind of players sucks. Keppinger and Wigginton are both valuable contributors on MLB teams. I would much rather have these guys on my roster than Easley or Anderson. And as I mentioned earlier, I would rather have Kepp as my starting 2B over Castillo.
There is nothing wrong with platoon/league average players. You don’t need an All Star at every position to win. You need a few stars who are supported by solid, everyday role players. And that’s what this team is lacking. They need some more Nady’s and Wigginton’s. Guys who come to play everyday and just give solid, if not spectacular, production.
The sooner the organization and you start to value these kind of players, the sooner the Mets will find success.
“and probably a dozen more guys down in Richmond etc. that would put Mets farm to shame.”
“I did not say it was bare but besides FMart none of those guys are a given to be a major leaguer.”
Why, on one hand, are you so sure about the Braves players, but on the other hand dismiss the Mets prospects so easily?
keith: you got trades mixed up buddy. Nady for Cameron. Bell/Ring for Ben Johnson and the quickly vanishing Adkins or whatever his name is….
Aaron Laffey is no hitting the Yuchies thru 5…. Think they’ll take him out on pitch count?
Crap. Thanks sloppy for that catch. While it does weaken my point, it still stands. Nady was not established.
Tomg – I agree, you’re right, it is NY fans (and Philly fans are pretty bad too).
Mike C. – “To be upbeat at this juncture would be to be either deluded or liars.” I never said to be thinking World Champs! I said it would be nice if the blog could be upbeat with a win!! Especially a win against the Braves and Smoltz!!!
Hello from DC – Welcome back. Thanks for the support and the laughs. What a welcome diversion from the gloom and doom!!!
Scott from Pelham – If Shea depresses the hitting and leads to fewer All Stars wouldn’t that be a part of the reason for the pitching All Stars as well? It certainly is a pitchers park (except recently for the bull pen).
Thanks everybody for a spirited debate!!!
keith, it is pretty simple. The Braves have 5 guys right now that start for them that came from their farm sys. And they are all good.
Their future CF (who got suspended-having brain freeze and can’t remember his name) is on his way and is a can’t miss. Before Escobar and Johnson they had Furcal and Giles. Before this new kid they had A Jones. Before Teixeria they had LaRouche.
That is 9 guys who are/were All stars or or close to it that came out of their farm just in the past 10yrs or so. The Mets might only have double that level of player come out of their system in 45 yrs.
That lends alot of credence that the Braves farm sys is much better than the Mets farm. So my dismal assessment is based more upon history. Maybe it will be wrong this time. But I don’t have alot of faith that it will.
Scoop, let’s relax a bit on these Braves players. Chipper and McCann are legit all stars, and Andruw and Furcal were all stars when they were in Atlanta, but I disagree on the other players.
Giles had 3 good years. LaRoche is about as good as Mike Jacobs, so he’s not even close to being an All Star 1B. Francoeur is not an all star either. It’s way too early to pass judgment on either Johnson or Escobar.
Yes, they are all good players and no one is arguing that the Mets have a better farm system than the Braves. But I still take issue with you just dismissing every players that has come through our system. Wiggy, Kepp, and Jacobs are all solid MLB ballplayers. The Mets just never gave them a shot to play. Plus, history has nothing to do with anything. Everyone focuses way too much on what happened in ‘07, ‘06, ‘88, ‘86, ‘69, etc. One season has nothing to do with another. There may be similarities, but they are all different. The Braves were able to become a franchise known for developing home grown talent. Why can’t the Mets do the same?
To add to the point about developing home grown talent note the super powers of high payroll in the AL East have switched to developing more and buying less. Everyone scrams at the high price of free agents. Well the cure is home grown guys….. Other than their own guys did either one of them sign an outsider this past Winter? If so, certainly not a major one… And neither was willing to give up the farm for a 25 million dollar arm….. The farm has to become dominant to stay competitive on a long term basis.
To add to the discussion about releasing a guy like Delgado if he is finished, some say you can’t do it because of his salary. Well if the Jays, a middle of the road salary team can release Thomas with
8 mil left and the Pirates, a very low paying team can release Matt Morris with10 mil left why can’t the Mets do it???? 10 mil for the Pirates is very significant.Sloppy: I think it’s because the Mets desparately need Delgado from 2006 to show up in this lineup to make it a force. They’ll wait on that to happen until mid season IMO, not after a month. And the question goes to who is going to replace him? Maybe the Mets could swing a trade for Kevin Millar and have him platoon with Delgado? Other that that, there isn’t much better out there to replace him so you might as well give him a chance to work his way out.
Also, if the Mariners continue to play .500 ball by the ASB, I would make a play for Raul Ibanez. He can play 1b and i’m pretty sure he is a FA after this season.
I did not say they were all all stars. But they are better than anything the Mets have produced for the last 10 yrs outside of Wright and reyes.
To say that Wiggy, Kepp or Jacobs are on par even w/kelly johnson is wrong. None of those 3 can play defense. And besides, again I point out that Keppinger was not a Mets farm sys player.
And I’d take Francouer right now. He might not be very patient at the plate but he is very dangerous and plays good D.
LaRouche is a much better player than Jacobs both offensively and especially defensively. Jacobs only plays first b/c he hurt his arm as a C.
And I’ll take history as a good indicator of the future b/c Schurholtz as a GM knows how to develop and draft players over Omar any day. He has been doing it since the 60s, first w/Balt then w/the royals and now 14 divisions w/the braves. Now the new guy (can’t remember his name) will learn from him.
That is what Omar wanted to do when he came here-be the Braves. I’d have to give him a very poor grade so far for player drafting and development.
that is why when everyone argurs that we should keep players I say who should they keep? They don’t have anybody.
That is why Omar (if he is still here) will have to pay up for Tiexara and OP in the offseason. B/c he knows the cubbard is pretty bare.
Dude, you are way overvaluing LaRoche. Check the stats. He and Jacobs are pretty much equal. LaRoche is better on defense, but we’re talking about 1B here.
Johnson is hitting .244 and isn’t exactly Roberto Alomar in the field. Don’t know why you’re all over him.
And no one is saying they wouldn’t take Francoeur, but the way you portray him its like he’s MIckey Mantle.
So you’re saying that: Wright, Reyes, Heilman, Smith, Bannister, Kazmir, Wigginton, Keppinger, Milledge, Bell, Lindstrom, and Gomez all suck?
Further, none of these players are Omar’s guys. You don’t just rebuild a farm system overnight. We’ll see this year and next how Omar’s picks/international signings pan out before we rip Omar’s ability to build up a system.
And remember, our prospects got us Johan, Church, and Schneider. The best pitcher on the planet, a starting RF, and an everyday catcher. So while they may not turn out to be much, we’ve at least pawned them off for value.
“That is why Omar (if he is still here) will have to pay up for Tiexara and OP in the offseason. B/c he knows the cubbard is pretty bare.”
Why are you so adamant about the cupboard being bare? I am not saying our minor league system is the land of milk and honey, but we have some players who have a chance to be solid major leaguers. They may not become all stars, but we don’t need all stars. We have a very nice core of all star talent in Wright, Reyes, Beltran, and FMart expected to join them. What this team needs is solid everyday ballplayers who we can depend on. And if that includes a Carp/Evans platoon at 1B, then that’s fine. There is nothing wrong with an effective platoon.
“So you’re saying that: Wright, Reyes, Heilman, Smith, Bannister, Kazmir, Wigginton, Keppinger, Milledge, Bell, Lindstrom, and Gomez all suck?”
Can read read dude?
KEPPINGER WAS NOT A MET FARMHAND!!!! and yes he sucks b/c he can’t play defense. Nor does ne have any power.
Kazmir? would be great if he could stay healthy…he should be a closer…of course this brings up another topic about how Mets trade away guys who could be really good and get nothin back….....
Wright and reyes? I never said they suck.
Heilman? I defend him all the time.
Bell was not any good until he learned a slider.
Gomez and Milledge? so far eh… but I’ll give them a TBD
Wigginton? blah…..no defense
Linstrom? TBD
Jacobs is really bad at 1B. And he is not as good offensively as Larouche; his #s against lefties are much worse. And 1B is just as important defensively as any other position except SS.
Anyway keep believing that the Mets are good at developing players.
1 HOF in 45 yrs, very few All stars from w/in. You can’t debate that.
Steve the original: You missed my point. I wasn’t discussing giving him a chance. I was discussing the point that some make that you can’t cut him because of salary. If you decide he’s toast why do you have to keep him because of salary when teams who are much poorer are cutting guys they decide are toast?
Sloppy: No, I understand. I think there would definitely be a point where the Mets would just cut him if he continued to be as bad as he has been. I just think it hasn’t happened by now because i’m sure of a combination of no one to replace him and it being too early. In the Thomas case, he made it a point to be unhapphy and didn’t even shake his teammates hands after a victory. I don’t think in that case the Jays had any other choice to do what they did.
What I do not understand is how we slam Omar for not being able to evaluate and sign talent and yet almost all the examples come from a different regime.
Omar made trades to make the team relevant. This weakened the farm. Some of the players he picked are gone in the Johan deal.
He has only been here 3 years. We knocked on the door a year ago.
What is the point here?
Dave: Good point. It is far too early to blast Omar. 3 years is not enough time to get a farm system together.
Evaluating Our GM
This is an incomplete list, but a list nontheless of players on our team that are the result of Team Omar.
Santana
Delgado
Beltran
Pedro
Ollie
Maine
El Duque
Smith
Church
Schneider
Wagner
Sanchez
Castillo
Chavez
As you can see, for better or worse almost all the players we have now are here because of Omar. There are really only 3 significant players who were here before
Reyes
Wright
Heilman
So the first list is our farm system.
Keppinger is a middle IF. He hits for enough power. He’s the Reds starting SS. If he was so bad defensively there is no way he would be starting. You’re over exaggerating.
Wigginton had a .961 FP last year. I know that is a crude metric, but its not terrible.
“his #s against lefties are much worse.” But how is LaRoche’s #’s on the third Tuesday in August? Come on dude, talk about a straw argument.
.269 .335 .479 – LaRoche
.268 .324 .498 – Jacobs
Pretty much a dead heat offensively… and Jacobs plays in an awful hitters park. As for defense, 1B is last on the defensive spectrum.
“Kazmir? would be great if he could stay healthy…he should be a closer”
I get it now, you’re insane. He threw over 200 innings last year and led the league in k’s with 239. Yeah, make this guy a closer… NOW!
And I never said the Mets are good at developing players, just that they’ve produced some good MLB players recently. Keep hating on good players though.
I find the talk about Wigginton pretty funny. We never gave him a chance to play. Who replaced Wiggy at 3rd ? A guy who is a bit better don’t you think.
When the Mets traded Wiggy he was one of the only guys who had any value that is why he was included in the Benson trade.
The Pirates actually released him and he signed as a FA with Tampa.
Now he is with Houston traded for Dan Wheeler no less.
Oh my, my favorite little metsies keith and Mr Scoopy are fighting. Well don’t worry metsies, Ill be your ref. Omar is bad and whenever you think Omar did bad you are the winner. Because Omar is the worst GM in the world. No rings for the Montreal Expos, no rings for the Washington Expos and certainly no rings for the NY Expos even tho he has all that money to waste now. Once the Cubbies win the WS this year they will have no jinx and the last jinx will be the jinx laid upon the metsies in 1986 by their wonderful catcher big Ed Hearn who has put a hex on the metsies for ever, forever mind you for not letting him play in the world series. The Metsies will not win for at least 100 years thanks to big Ed Hearn!!!!! Big Ed was my favorite metsie ever…... poor metsies, you should stick together but it won’t help overcome big Ed Hearn!
PS: How is mr unoriginal doing. I see since I lectured him on his “despicable” metsie behavior he has made nice to everybody. Good for you mr orignal now you can have your name back since you are now a good little metsie like keith and mr scoopy….... and of course the best little metsies of them all clm and Delcos!!!!
good luck tonight against the XMAN… Maybe he has put a curse on you as well for dealing him to the Pirates of Pittsburgh. He would have liked it better if you traded him to the Steelers….
PS: I see your hockey boys are doing bad also….Sweep by both Pittsburgh teams!!!!!!!
Scott, the point I have been trying to make over the past few months is how little the Mets value players “like” Wigginton and Keppinger. Again, the ultimate example of this was when they traded Nady for a 40 year old middle reliever, who was essentially a rental player, and a struggling young pitcher who was sent down to AAA after struggling mightily for 2 years AND had been rocked in his few AAA starts in ‘06.
League average production is not as easy to replace as everyone thinks. Fans think you can just go to the corner OF supermarket and pick another Xavier Nady type player off the shelf. As we saw with Ben Johnson, it’s not that easy.
My dad constantly says that the Mets lineup has never been the same since they traded Nady, and when you think about it, I think he has a point.
Keith: How can you fault Omar for the Nady trade? The Mets were contenders and Roberto Hernandez was a reasonable replacement for Sanchez at the time. And while Ollie had struggled badly, he still had value as a young lefty.
Also, correlation doesn’t mean causation. The difference in the Mets lineup since Nady left could have been because Valentin was real hot in the first half of 2006 and Wright cooled down in the second half of that year. Wright had his power outage then.
I also can’t fault them too much for Wiggy since there was no room for him once Wright came up. There was no place to play him at the time.
Keppinger is another matter. It does appear he was undervalued. It would be interesting to know exactly why.
DC: Didn’t I swat you away like the flies and the snakes in your town?
JK, I don’t believe in trading everyday players for relief pitchers. The lineup dynamic changed when they traded Nady and they’ve struggled to find lineup balance ever since. The way the bullpen pitched that year, did we really need to replace Sanchez? Heilman, Feliciano, Bradford, and Oliver all pitched great in ‘06. That pen was loaded.
Anyway, my point was that I felt it was a panic trade at the time, and I still think it was a panic trade, despite what Ollie’s done. Nady was our starting RF and having a solid season. We traded our starting RF for a guy who barely pitched for us. As it turned out, we landed Mota off waivers and he ended up being better than Robo. Which goes back to original point. Trading everyday players for middle relievers is dumb, because it’s a lot easier to replace a middle reliever than your starting RF.
Keith: It depends on who the everyday player is. Nady’s OPS at the time was just .813 and he’s just an average fielder—not as good as Church. And I value pitching over offense.
So this is a trade I agree with.
And yes, I think they really needed to replace Sanchez. It was for the postseason as much as for August-September. Hernandez, while not spectacular, was solid for the Mets that year. As for Mota, do you really think it’s a lot easier to replace a middle reliever who’s decent? Without resorting to someone on steroids? I don’t think so. Without his fix, Mota was a disaster for Cleveland that year. And we saw what he’s like when he’s clean in 2007.
Also, the lineup dynamic almost always changes when you take out player A and insert player B. The question is whether player A was the key to a decreased offensive production from the team after he left. Unless Nady was responsible somehow for Wright having his power outage and Valentin cooling off in the 2nd half, then I’d have to say no.
JK, while you make valid points about Wright and Valentin, the lineup became very LH heavy (we replaced Nady with Green) and Floyd also had some injury issues. So we ended up losing a lot of pop at the end of the lineup. Sure, Nady wasn’t as good defensively as Church, but imo he was better than Green. At the least he had a stronger arm.
You’re also kind of proving my point. I never claimed Nady was anything more than league average. His OPS+ at the time was 107, a shade above average. This kind of production from an everyday player is a lot harder to come by than most people think.
Further, at the time of the trade, Nady had a VORP of 9.5. We replaced him with Green, who had a VORP of 7 when we acquired him and who had a VORP of 2 while playing for us.
Let’s also take a look at Duaner’s VORP vs. Robo’s VORP. Duaner had a VORP of 17.7, so yes, I would agree with you, he was a huge loss. But who did we replace him with? Roberto Hernandez and his 4.9 VORP.
So aside from my personal feelings that the old adage of an everyday player having more value than a pitcher (in general, all things being equal), this trade was not a smart one because we downgraded TWO areas of the team b/c of the Sanchez injury. And in my opinion, it wasn’t necessary.
Heilman had a VORP of 20.6, Bradford – 19.2, Feliciano – 25.2, Oliver – 21.0. Some more guys: Mota – 10.0, Bell – -.6 (but he had a 10.0 in Norfolk and a 8.2 K/9 in the bigs and his BB/9 was actually lower in the bigs… so if they had given Bell a shot down the stretch, he probably would ended up being a decent option… but I digress.)
So the point? Losing Duaner definitely stunk, but we had a pretty sick bullpen, sick enough to absorb the loss of Duaner. The REAL weakness in ‘06 was the rotation. So if Omar had used Nady to score a starter, then I would have understood that more than the deal to acquire a guy who didn’t even come close to replacing Duaner (Heilman would have been and actually ended up being, the better replacement.)
Keith, look at the splits for Wright that year. His OPS dropped over a hundred points from the first half to the second half. And Valentin who was torrid in May, June and July, tailed off significantly in August and September when he put up a .633 OPS. This was the primary reason for the falloff in power and production in the second half that year. At any rate, offense wasn’t a problem for the team at all the second half.
In terms of defense, Green was better than Nady in RF. His ZR was .873 vs. Nady’s .859. This mitigates somewhat his better offense, but as I said, I don’t think offense was a problem that year.
Also, defense isn’t included in VORP.
It was just as hard or maybe even harder to come by a league average reliever as it was a league average position player.
Hernandez was not meant to replace Duaner directly, but provide a reasonably good reliever who could slide in the bullpen and move everyone up.
How is that? At the time of the trade we didn’t have Sanchez anymore. So RH enhances the bullpen. And the RF position is only diminished slightly. So they downgraded (slightly) one area of the team which they could afford to do at the time and they bolstered another.
Don’t go there Keith! Do you really want to get into that again? ; )
See that’s where I disagree. They did have a great bullpen before the fatal taxi ride, but somehow they had to replace Duaner. Not just for the rest of the season, but for the playoffs. RH filled that spot, somewhere in the middle of the pen and Heilman and Feliciano both moved up.
Uh, ahem, Keith … Omar did get a starter using Nady, remember? Hint: OLlie, Ollie, Ollie!
Ok, now that I’ve refreshed your memory, let me add that Ollie was clutch in the playoffs. Without the clutch pitching of Ollie and Maine in ‘06, I don’t think the Mets even get as far as they did. Both El Duque and Pedro had crapped out on the team by then. So Ollie was huge. This trade was crucial IMO to the Mets going as far as they did into the NLCS.
“This trade was crucial IMO to the Mets going as far as they did into the NLCS.”
Well, we’re arguing from different perspectives. You have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, while I’m arguing how I felt at the time.
Minaya is lucky Ollie got his act together for the playoffs because they hardly used RH. Did he even make an appearance in the playoffs?
And if you want to use 20/20 hindsight, let’s not forget, they got Mota off waivers and he pitched more often and more effectively than RH did.
My ultimate point was that we lost Duaner, weakening the bullpen. Then we traded Nady, weakening the lineup. Sure we added RH, negligibly improving the bullpen, but I don’t think it was worth Nady. To me, there is no way you can sit there and with a straight face claim you knew Ollie was going to do what he did. I always liked Perez and was happy Omar got him included to salvage that trade somewhat, but even I didn’t think he would turn things around so quickly.
And I really don’t want to hear about Shawn “I turn singles into triples” Green’s zone rating.
Keith, even at the time, without the benefit of 20/20, I would have done that trade because:
1) Unlike you, I just was never very impressed by Nady. It was his defense that turned me off on him. It’s what took the bloom off the Pagan rose for me too. I am quite surprised at Pagan’s shaky defense sometimes. If that was why the organization initially let him go, I can understand it now. For this reason, I prefer Endy over Pagan. At least for many situations and game matchups. Endy’s defense is leaps and bounds superior to Pagan’s.
2) I’d rather lose a little defense if I can gain in the pitching department and RH bolstered the bullpen and allowed others to move up. Sure he was old, but he was pitching solidly in Pittsburgh at the time and was great for the Mets the year before. He was NY-proven.
3)Omar initially wanted to spin Ollie off into Linebrink which almost materialized but for a last-minute change of heart by Towers. That shows that Ollie had value at the time. RH + Ollie OR RH + Linebrink to me is worth Nady.
4) How can you count on a reliever off of waivers violating MLB’s drug policy and cheating with steroids? That’s the only way Mota was able to succeed in late 2006. No GM can count on that.
As for Green’s ZR, it is what it is. Better than Nady’s. I think both are poor fielders by the way. Neither is as good as Church. I’m so glad they got Church.
So bottom line—I think the trade was a good one. It comes down to the differences in how we value Nady and the bullpen and defense. You value Nady a lot more than I do. And I value a strong bullpen and defense a little more than you do.
That should read—I’d rather lose a little offense if I can gain in the pitching department…”