Not liking Gotay move
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- March
- 28
One Met who asked for anonymity shook his head when told Ruben Gotay was signed by Atlanta.
“Atlanta?” he said. “That’s going to come back to bite us.”
This entry was posted
on Friday, March 28th, 2008 at 4:39 pm by John Delcos.
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Whatever…
i think its becoming more and more clear. As much as willie and omar talk up younger players. The moment they can go to a veteran over a youngster they will do it.
so long gotay,jesus flores,milledge,bell,lindstrom
hello. tatis,scneider,church,john adkins
notice the trend.
oh and im not saying always play the youngster over a veteran. I get why you have veterans on the team. But all gotay did for most of the year was hit. And he sparked the offense for a time while it was stagnant.
im not saying losing gotay is a terrible thing for the mets. But if castillo goes down for any long duration of time. Id rather gotay be out there than marlon anderson,easley,or anderson hernandez.
Gotay was a one trick poney. He couldn't hit righties (which is desperately needed on this bench) and he couldn't play defense. Marlon Anderson and Endy Chavez provide Willie much more flexibility from the left side than Gotay can. A national league bench is about allowing the manager flexibility offensively and defensively.
Why… he's A BENCH PLAYER!!! Who cares all that much about one bench player- get over it!
"Why… he’s A BENCH PLAYER!!! Who cares all that much about one bench player- get over it!"
This comment shows absolutely no foresight.
"Gotay was a one trick poney. He couldn’t hit righties (which is desperately needed on this bench) and he couldn’t play defense."
Unlike speed, athleticism, and youth, three things Gotay had, defense can be taught. This new criticism of LH hitters that they can't hit lefties is fascinating to me. People have used this to criticize Church and now Gotay. Do people realize the majority of MLB pitchers are RH?
"A national league bench is about allowing the manager flexibility offensively and defensively."
Tatis and Marlon provide flexibility? They both suck in the field. I think I have a better arm than Marlon Anderson. Just because they own OF and 1B mitts doesn't make them "versatile".
www.metsprospectus.blogspot.com
What the hell is wrong with you people? Why is that everywhere I look people are crying, cursing, and cutting themselves (ok maybe not) over the loss of Ruben Gotay? You people are like a deer in headlights after seeing what Gotay did in 190 AB. First it was the people saying that the Mets should of never acquired a .300 hitting gold glove 2B, and should of kept playing Gotay, then it was the people saying Gotay should make the team, and now the same people are saying that this is going to come back and bite the Mets in the ass.
Sorry it's not. Lets just look at some of his stats.. Even though he hit .295 in 190 AB, he struck out 42 times. Average that out for an entire season, and thats 126 strikeouts. That doesn't even take into account that Ruben Gotay had 154 out of his 190 AB against RIGHT HANDED PITCHING.
But I'm already given Gotay too much credit here. This is a 25 year old career minor leaguer, who has an average of .257 in his last three seasons in the minor leagues. Not to mention he was hitting .256 in AAA before being called up. People need to realize that the .380 he hit in June and July was A FLUKE.
So what is Ruben Gotay? Ruben Gotay is an average at best defensive SS/2B, who is an average hitter vs right handed pitchers, but struggles mightily against left handers, that he may have to give up right handed hitting. Ruben Gotay is a player who needs to play everyday, and is a below average pinch hitter- from both sides of the plate.
If the Mets were to carry Ruben Gotay on the roster, they would be flooded with left handed hitters who can't hit lefties. Ruben Gotay doesn't offer any versatility, and isn't the type of player who makes up for it with his bat. I think it's possible that Ruben Gotay is the most OVERRATED player in Mets history.
I'd just like to point out the absurdity of calling the the losses of Flores, Bell, and Lindstrom due to the supposed favoring of veterans. That's such a laughable notion it hurts.
Look, it's not just us "crazy" Mets fans who have a problem with the Mets cutting Gotay and getting nothing in return.
Baseball Digest Daily: http://blog.baseballdigestdaily.com/blog/_archives/2008/3/28/3608128.html
He even got his own post on AOL Fanhouse:
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/03/27/ruben-gotay-gets-a-raw-deal/
"Luis Castillo might represent an upgrade over Ruben Gotay, and he might not. Castillo is a one-dimensional player whose game revolves around his speed. He's a classic slap hitter who can't even turn on average fastballs but who hits the ball on the ground and tries to slap harder stuff the other way and beat balls out with his speed. His speed has already started to decline; his range at second base, never great, is now poor, and he hasn't been an effective basestealer since 2004. He's the antithesis of everything the Omar Minaya's Mets do as an offensive club. Their best hitters—Reyes, Wright, Delgado and Beltran—all get on base, hit for power, and (except for Delgado) steal bases at high percentages.
Whether he's really an upgrade depends on how much of Gotay's offensive outburst this season is real. Gotay's career was nearly derailed by the Royals' ridiculous policy of jumping players two levels or more to the majors before they were ready, a policy that fortunately seems to have ended with the hiring of GM Dayton Moore, but before that showed promise as a young infielder with plate discipline and some doubles power. The Mets are convinced that Gotay's defense isn't good enough to be an everyday second baseman, and he will never be better than average defensively at second, but he's better than Castillo is. Add to that the fact that Gotay has a little more thump in his bat, with a solid line-drive stroke that produces doubles rather than the groundballs Castillo hits, and it's really not clear that the Mets got better here. It's a bit worse if, as rumored, the Mets try to work out a contract extension with Castillo, because once his speed is gone, he'll be close to a replacement-level player."
Baseball Prospectus:
2005:
"The very definition of a sleeper prospect, Gotay again showed exciting offensive potential for a middle infielder his age… one observer compares him to Todd Walker. His glove aside, 21-year-old second basemen who can hold their own offensively in the major leagues should not be nearly this unheralded."
2006:
It`s hard to argue that Gotay was rushed. After all, he hit well in an extended trial in 2004, and as late as June 20th he was hitting a perfectly respectable .262/.321/.422. He then went into a 15-for-95 tailspin that only ended when he was shipped back to Double-A. The Royals publicly admitted that Gotay`s confidence was completely shot. Gotay`s defense isn`t very good, but it`s also not nearly as bad as the Royals would have you believe. He will probably spend the year in Omaha, which may be the best thing for him at this point. Many in the organization compare him to Todd Walker, and the funny thing is that they mean it as an insult.
2007:
"The Mets acquired Gotay, defrocked Royals second baseman of the future, in July in exchange for Jeff Keppinger. It was a trade of a second baseman the Mets didn`t want for one that, with the emergence of Jose Valentin, they didn`t need. Still, the Mets got three years younger in the deal, and Gotay, once a valued prospect, played quite well at Norfolk. With Valentin almost guaranteed to regress this season, there may yet be a second act to the Gotay story."
Look, no one, myself included, is saying Gotay was destined for greatness. But, you cannot keep throwing away young players with potential upside the way they have with Bell, Gotay, Keppinger, Lindstrom, Owens, Flores, etc.
"I’d just like to point out the absurdity of calling the the losses of Flores, Bell, and Lindstrom due to the supposed favoring of veterans. That’s such a laughable notion it hurts."
The only thing that is absurd is how little this team values young players who aren't automatic studs upon reaching the bigs.
RE: Marlon vs. Gotay. There is no way I don't choose Marlon over anyone else on that bench. He's been Mr. Clutch for the Mets. Gotay seems to be clutch too, having gotten some big hits for the Mets last year, and I'm sad to see him go. But Marlon is the best pinch hitter the Mets have had in years in terms of getting the big hits.
Clutch? JK, I thought you were better than that.
What do you mean Keith? Marlon has been clutch for the Mets. Very clutch.
Can't hit lefties:
Gotay we got rid of despite the fact he "can't hit lefties in a small sampling
Church we got despite fact he can't hit lefties in a less small sampling. But he needs a chance.
Gotayt was traded because his fielding sucked and is being replaced by a guy who's fielding sucks….and whose hitting sucks.
Gotay is called a 25 year old minor leaguer so we dump him. But we get Church who is a 29 year old career minor leaguer.
Ruben Gotay is the mnost overrated player in Met history, since who, since Ryan Church!!!!!!
It won't matter that Tatis sucks they say because he's the 25th man. This is incorrect becasue on Randolph managed teams the last guy is the backup catcher.
One guy even said it ain't Church's fault he's on the Mets. Well it ain't Gotay's fault he ain't on the Mets.
Losing Gotay makes us a little weaker. One game two games maybe?? It makes the Braves a little better because they outrighted a 215 hitter for Gotay. So are they one game better , maybe two? No big deal you guys say BECAUSE WE LOST THE PENNANT BY ONE FREAKIN GAME and JULIO FRANCO'S BAT COST US MORE CLOSE GAMES THAN ONE.
:) Sloppy, for once we are on the same page.
JK, clutch doesn't exist. But let's squash a long debate on this today. Agree to disagree here.
Your comparing Ruben Gotay to Ryan Church?
I guess you think Gotay can hit 15 homeruns and 43 doubles playing at RFK to. Overrated.
No, Keith. It does exist.
I guess you never noticed that Church was a .292 career hitter in the minors, and hit close to 100 homeruns. 2004 in the minor leagues (before getting called up)
.343 17 homeruns 78 RBI, yeah Gotay has never even come close to those stats.
"I guess you never noticed that Church was a .292 career hitter in the minors, and hit close to 100 homeruns"
Thanks for proving that ryan Church is a minor league caliber player.Ever hear of AAAA caliber??? That's him 4A, ain't we lucky?
minor league caliber player.. AAAA player.. aren't these the type of players who have big years in the minors, but can never do it at the major league level.
.270 15 homeruns 43 doubles 70 RBI in less then 500 AB, on a bad offensive team, in a hitters doom of a park.. I'm pretty sure Church is more then a minor league caliber player.
But hey we can't even say Gotay is a AAAA player, because he's not even hit at the minor league level.
What are you talking about:
2006 AAA totals: .265/.321/.407, 12 HR, 28 2B, 64 RBIs
And he plays second base. Ryan Church plays a corner OF spot… big difference. Sure these aren't mind blowing numbers, but Gotay has shown that he was starting to put things together last season. He played very well when he was starting for us.
"But hey we can’t even say Gotay is a AAAA player, because he’s not even hit at the minor league level."
Yeah, who cares that he played well for us in the MAJOR LEAGUES last year.
PS: Guess who's AAA stats these are:
.256/.326/.409, 15 HR, 24 2B, 46 RBIs.
Give up? Those were the AAA stats Brandon Phillips posted in 2005 as a 24 year old. They look similar to the stats I posted above for Gotay, who put that line up as a 24 year old as well.
Again, not saying Gotay is going to develop into an All Star, cleanup hitting, second baseman. But, Phillips, like Gotay, was once a top prospect who was given up on and given a shot to play every day by his new team. Finally getting a chance to play every day, he produced a monster season at age 26.
So yeah, forgive me if I take issue with waiving a young, former top 2B prospect, who has some pop and has improved patience at the plate.
"No, Keith. It does exist."
Proof?
Man: If you prefer a guy with 56 ABs in the bigs over a span of 4 years, over a guy who came off the bench for you and hit almost .300 when one of your starters went doen, then you must have changed your name from JK…. Not worth discussing with someone who thinks Omar is Mr Perfect.
Why did at least 10 other teams pass on Gotay if he was that good ?
Why did 29 other teams not try to trade for Church if he is so good? Can't defend a roid infested body replacing Gotay so you come up with pathetic question like that one. If Tatis is so valubale and flexible why hasn't he been in any major league uniform 3 of the last 4 years? Why is the sky blue? Why doesn't it snow at the equator? Why did the Mets lose the pennant by one stinkin game… Because Omar loves old washed, losers to fill his bench and cost this team games every year.
Is Tatis the last guy on the roster ? I thought the decision has not been made. Why do you assume that it will be Tatis and not Clark. Clark deserves the last spot at least until Alou gets back.
I said quite clearly yesterday that the last spot on the roster could change many times this year. The have no money tied up as the did last year in players for this spot. ( Newhan & Franco ) They may even try to carry three catchers and use Castro as a pinch hitter for part of the year.
Also your comment about Church has hit a new low in being irrational. I know you do not like the guy but how do you know that not even one other major league team may have been interested in him.
If the Mets do not win the division it is not going to be because of Gotay. It is most likely going to be because the bullpen was not good enough.
If Gotay could have played any other position but 2nd base he would still be here. Did Gotay go to winter league and work on playing short or 3rd or outfield. Not that any of us are aware of, so his not being on this team is as much his fault as any ones.
Please don't give me the line the Mets should have told him to try and play other positions. If you want to stay in the majors you figure out a way. Joe McEwing did Chris Woodward did. Maybe Gotay should have worked harder.
Keith: one shouldn’t be a slave to sabermetrics. Just because most who follow it may believe in one thing doesn’t make it necessarily so, especially when theories are based on poor data, badly designed studies, or highly speculative interpretations of data (as in BABIP).
When it comes to clutchness, most in the sabermetric community have had it wrong for years, basing their opinions on poorly designed studies. Or simply parroting the popular party line based on blind faith.. \\Now Bill James himself has done a 180 on clutchness as you can read here where he’s done some new studies on it:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/30/james.clutch/index.html
Here are some salient quotes from the article:
And others are jumping on board with him. I’ve long believed that clutchness exists. You can’t watch some players for years like David Ortiz without thinking so. I’m glad Bill James now believes this as well, and has started to do research and studies to prove it.
Marlon Anderson has been clutch. At least for the Mets.
Schoeneweis is not clutch. At least not for the Mets. I don't know if this guy has ever been clutch for anyone. I doubt it. I am watching the civil rights game now and he just gave up the lead. Ugh.
Was Church ever put on waivers and every team in MLB passed on him? Was he ever offered up to all teams in a trade and they all passed on him? Was he ever a free agent and no one wanted him?
Unless one of those situations existed, I don't know how anyone can say that no other ML team was ever interested in him.
Its obvious scott minaya that nobody wanted steeple.You guys totally convinced me that Milledge sucks and is a jerk like JK so if that's all the Nats got nobody offered anything for the guy. By the way did you see his great play today. I don't hear you guys bragging about him anymore. Thanks for the lecture about what Gotay did. Since you are at zero knowledge on the matter why donm't you drop it until you know something.
"Maybe Gotay should have worked harder."
This is not a fair statement at all. Come on.
As for this issue of teams passing on players on waivers… Manny Ramirez cleared waivers. And while I understand there were particular circumstances there… that's my point.