Comments on: Injury updates http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/ All about the Mets Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:08:38 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: JK http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-2/#comment-37291 JK Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:32:23 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37291 Another thought about Reyes. I remember when he was struggling big time, especially with walks and OBP. Some fans on some forums were even calling for him to be sent back down to the minors. I'm glad the front office had patience with him. It's paid off. Another thought about Reyes. I remember when he was struggling big time, especially with walks and OBP. Some fans on some forums were even calling for him to be sent back down to the minors. I’m glad the front office had patience with him. It’s paid off.

]]> By: JK http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-2/#comment-37290 JK Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:30:05 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37290 And they would have ditched Pelfrey by now if it were true they have no patience. And they would have ditched Pelfrey by now if it were true they have no patience.

]]> By: JK http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37289 JK Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:29:15 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37289 ** ... Unless you come to the bigs perfect, they ditch you first chance they get. This is utter nonsense. Reyes didn't come in perfect. He certainly had times when he struggled at first. Heilman struggled too. They stuck with him (as a reliever). Bell certainly got his fair chances with the Mets in both 2005 and 2006. He was awful. He was the pitching equivalent of Andy Hernandez who could hit very well in the minors then stunk with the bat whenever he was called up. By the time Omar traded Bell, I was glad to see him go.
  • ... Unless you come to the bigs perfect, they ditch you first chance they get.

    This is utter nonsense. Reyes didn’t come in perfect. He certainly had times when he struggled at first. Heilman struggled too. They stuck with him (as a reliever).

    Bell certainly got his fair chances with the Mets in both 2005 and 2006. He was awful. He was the pitching equivalent of Andy Hernandez who could hit very well in the minors then stunk with the bat whenever he was called up.

    By the time Omar traded Bell, I was glad to see him go.

    • ]]>         By: Keith http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37286 Keith Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:47:58 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37286 "He never would have achieved any of that w/the Mets b/c for whatever reason, they could not get him to throw or show him how to throw that slider." How do you know this? This is exactly my point. The Mets don't try to develop players. Unless you come to the bigs perfect, they ditch you first chance they get. "Just b/c a guy throws 95+ does not equate to being a good ML Pitcher (see Burgos)." No kidding. But still, you can't teach a 95+ fastball, so you shouldn't just throw away power arms like that. Especially a guy like Bell who also had control and busted his butt, or a guy like Lindstrom who looked like he was finally putting it together. And if you think Bell had a fair shot in '06 you're kidding yourself. Acela renamed the train going down to Norfolk the Heath Bell Shuttle. “He never would have achieved any of that w/the Mets b/c for whatever reason, they could not get him to throw or show him how to throw that slider.”

    How do you know this? This is exactly my point. The Mets don’t try to develop players. Unless you come to the bigs perfect, they ditch you first chance they get.

    “Just b/c a guy throws 95+ does not equate to being a good ML Pitcher (see Burgos).”

    No kidding. But still, you can’t teach a 95+ fastball, so you shouldn’t just throw away power arms like that. Especially a guy like Bell who also had control and busted his butt, or a guy like Lindstrom who looked like he was finally putting it together.

    And if you think Bell had a fair shot in ‘06 you’re kidding yourself. Acela renamed the train going down to Norfolk the Heath Bell Shuttle.

    ]]>         By: hello from DC http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37272 hello from DC Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:46:44 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37272 Attention all little Metsies: Coming this Fall to a bookstore near you: THE WORST TEAM MONEY CAN BUY PART 2: THE 2008 NEW YORK METS.... Buy it for your Christmas stockings!!!!! Attention all little Metsies: Coming this Fall to a bookstore near you: THE WORST TEAM MONEY CAN BUY PART 2: THE 2008 NEW YORK METS….
    Buy it for your Christmas stockings!!!!!

    ]]>         By: JK http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37258 JK Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:17:28 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37258 scoop, it's true it's too early to say definitely that Bannister will be a solid ML starter. But the early returns look like he might be. And, at any rate, wouldn't he have been much better than Park or Lawrence last year? I think so. scoop, it’s true it’s too early to say definitely that Bannister will be a solid ML starter. But the early returns look like he might be. And, at any rate, wouldn’t he have been much better than Park or Lawrence last year? I think so.

    ]]>         By: scoopcoop http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37256 scoopcoop Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:07:25 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37256 JK wrote, "I never liked the trades of Bannister, Owens, and Lindstrom as they didn’t get back good value for them. And all could of helped in..." It is true that they did not get back much, but only Lindstrom had/has any quality himself. I don't think Bannister will be long term a winner. He does not have an out pitch (ie gets swings and misses and SOs). And Ownes w/his goofy delivery got himself hurt and is not even in camp w/Marlins this yr. JK wrote, “I never liked the trades of Bannister, Owens, and Lindstrom as they didn’t get back good value for them. And all could of helped in…”

    It is true that they did not get back much, but only Lindstrom had/has any quality himself. I don’t think Bannister will be long term a winner. He does not have an out pitch (ie gets swings and misses and SOs). And Ownes w/his goofy delivery got himself hurt and is not even in camp w/Marlins this yr.

    ]]>         By: scoopcoop http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37255 scoopcoop Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:00:43 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37255 It is true that Bell did not walk people and had a good W/SO ratio w/the Mets. But that fact remains that he did not become a good RP until he went to SD and Bud Black or somebody else showed him how to throw a slider for strikes. In fact that slider of his is now an out picth. He went from having a non-ML level slider to a very,very good one. That is why he went from having ERA's in the mid-5's w/the Mets to an ERA of 2, a whip under 1 and a BAA of under .200 in 07. He never would have achieved any of that w/the Mets b/c for whatever reason, they could not get him to throw or show him how to throw that slider. Just b/c a guy throws 95+ does not equate to being a good ML Pitcher (see Burgos). You have got to be able to throw off speed pitches for strikes. He could not do that w/the Mets. It is true that Bell did not walk people and had a good W/SO ratio w/the Mets. But that fact remains that he did not become a good RP until he went to SD and Bud Black or somebody else showed him how to throw a slider for strikes. In fact that slider of his is now an out picth. He went from having a non-ML level slider to a very,very good one. That is why he went from having ERA’s in the mid-5’s w/the Mets to an ERA of 2, a whip under 1 and a BAA of under .200 in 07.

    He never would have achieved any of that w/the Mets b/c for whatever reason, they could not get him to throw or show him how to throw that slider.

    Just b/c a guy throws 95+ does not equate to being a good ML Pitcher (see Burgos). You have got to be able to throw off speed pitches for strikes. He could not do that w/the Mets.

    ]]>         By: JK http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37251 JK Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:44:06 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37251 I never liked the trades of Bannister, Owens, and Lindstrom as they didn't get back good value for them. And all could of helped in '07. But there's no way Heath Bell would have worked out in NY, and he got plenty of opportunities to prove himself with the Mets in '05 and '06 and stunk both years. As for BABIP, I hate using that to try to argue a pitcher should be kept around and think it's a highly specious argument. To show just how speculative the theory is, the author of the Hardball Times article says: ** ... I'd be somewhat shocked if Heath Bell wasn't back in the majors next year and much improved ... He might be a bit hittable at times, but there is no way his BABIP will be as high as it was in 2005 again Well, guess what? He was back in the majors the next year and was anything but "much improved." And his BABIP was worse! Ultimately, it doesn't matter what a speculative stat said. Bell didn't get along with Peterson so it was clear he wasn't going to thrive under his tutelage. Whether that was the reason for his pitching failures it's hard to say. Maybe he just couldn't execute his pitches well playing under the pressure of NY. At any rate, it's easy to see why they gave up on him. I never liked the trades of Bannister, Owens, and Lindstrom as they didn’t get back good value for them. And all could of helped in ‘07. But there’s no way Heath Bell would have worked out in NY, and he got plenty of opportunities to prove himself with the Mets in ‘05 and ‘06 and stunk both years.

    As for BABIP, I hate using that to try to argue a pitcher should be kept around and think it’s a highly specious argument. To show just how speculative the theory is, the author of the Hardball Times article says:

    • ... I’d be somewhat shocked if Heath Bell wasn’t back in the majors next year and much improved … He might be a bit hittable at times, but there is no way his BABIP will be as high as it was in 2005 again

      Well, guess what? He was back in the majors the next year and was anything but “much improved.” And his BABIP was worse!

      Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what a speculative stat said. Bell didn’t get along with Peterson so it was clear he wasn’t going to thrive under his tutelage. Whether that was the reason for his pitching failures it’s hard to say. Maybe he just couldn’t execute his pitches well playing under the pressure of NY. At any rate, it’s easy to see why they gave up on him.

    ]]>         By: letsgometsgo http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37245 letsgometsgo Sun, 23 Mar 2008 02:28:05 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37245 I think we could have brought back Jesse Orosco and he would have done better than schoeneweis. I think we could have brought back Jesse Orosco and he would have done better than schoeneweis.

    ]]>         By: Keith http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37241 Keith Sat, 22 Mar 2008 22:48:29 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37241 Scoop, I refer to this article for Bell for my statistical backup: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/daily-graphing-heath-bell/ And I will refer to myself for a more observational Bell argument. I went to a ton of Met games in '05 and liked what I saw from Bell. He threw hard, went after hitters and had a great relievers mentality. I was in the stands when he came into a game against the Yanks with the bases loaded and struck out Jeter. While he had and always will have a straight fastball, you do not trade guys who can throw as hard as he does and do not walk people. Further, he showed a tremendous work ethic losing a bunch of weight and constantly working to improve himself. The Mets were dumb to deal him. As for Ring, he was a helluva lot cheaper than Show, and would have been a lot easier to cut if he performed like Show. Lindstrom dazzled in the futures game, earning gushing reviews from Keith Law (who is not one to gush), and Owens threw hard and had a deceptive delivery (which are two things Kevin Towers looks for when picking guys up off the scrap heap when he assembles those great bullpens.) The bottom line is Minaya dumped 3 guys who threw hard and showed hints of promise at a time when the bullpen was very thin. Ring, who knows with that guy. I still think he could end up a LOOGY somewhere. Scoop, I refer to this article for Bell for my statistical backup: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/daily-graphing-heath-bell/

    And I will refer to myself for a more observational Bell argument. I went to a ton of Met games in ‘05 and liked what I saw from Bell. He threw hard, went after hitters and had a great relievers mentality. I was in the stands when he came into a game against the Yanks with the bases loaded and struck out Jeter.

    While he had and always will have a straight fastball, you do not trade guys who can throw as hard as he does and do not walk people. Further, he showed a tremendous work ethic losing a bunch of weight and constantly working to improve himself. The Mets were dumb to deal him.

    As for Ring, he was a helluva lot cheaper than Show, and would have been a lot easier to cut if he performed like Show. Lindstrom dazzled in the futures game, earning gushing reviews from Keith Law (who is not one to gush), and Owens threw hard and had a deceptive delivery (which are two things Kevin Towers looks for when picking guys up off the scrap heap when he assembles those great bullpens.)

    The bottom line is Minaya dumped 3 guys who threw hard and showed hints of promise at a time when the bullpen was very thin. Ring, who knows with that guy. I still think he could end up a LOOGY somewhere.

    ]]>         By: sloppy http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37237 sloppy Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:38:27 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37237 Well Scoop, we'll agree about Bradford......The point about gutting the pen was that Minaya left the team with no options he just dumped 4 relievers from the sytstem....He had nobody to bring up and at least try. Well Scoop, we’ll agree about Bradford…...The point about gutting the pen was that Minaya left the team with no options he just dumped 4 relievers from the sytstem….He had nobody to bring up and at least try.

    ]]>         By: scoopcoop http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37234 scoopcoop Sat, 22 Mar 2008 20:35:12 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37234 Gutted pen? The only guy who may have made a difference was Linstrom. Two of the others will be lucky to be on a ML roster. As I stated Bell would not have mounted to anything here unless someone could have figured out how to get him to throw that slider he throws now. Mota. I did not like that decision. Show was ok but not for 3 yrs. They should have kept Bradford instead. Gutted pen? The only guy who may have made a difference was Linstrom. Two of the others will be lucky to be on a ML roster. As I stated Bell would not have mounted to anything here unless someone could have figured out how to get him to throw that slider he throws now.

    Mota. I did not like that decision. Show was ok but not for 3 yrs. They should have kept Bradford instead.

    ]]>         By: scoopcoop http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37233 scoopcoop Sat, 22 Mar 2008 20:32:02 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37233 I stated that Gotay can hit LH. Bell in 05? He stunk then too. He only became what he is now b/c Bud Black or the SD picthing coaches figured out how to get him to throw a slider for strikes. That made his fast but straight fastball better. Never stated Church was a good player meaning that he will be a .300/25/100 guy. Just stated that you don't like him b/c you didn't like the trade. I stated that that was not his decision. I stated that Gotay can hit LH.

    Bell in 05? He stunk then too. He only became what he is now b/c Bud Black or the SD picthing coaches figured out how to get him to throw a slider for strikes. That made his fast but straight fastball better.

    Never stated Church was a good player meaning that he will be a .300/25/100 guy. Just stated that you don’t like him b/c you didn’t like the trade. I stated that that was not his decision.

    ]]>         By: Keith http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37232 Keith Sat, 22 Mar 2008 20:25:33 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37232 sloppy, I'll also add that no one is going to pay for a player who is superfluous on this roster. They know the Mets don't need him. sloppy, I’ll also add that no one is going to pay for a player who is superfluous on this roster. They know the Mets don’t need him.

    ]]>         By: sloppy http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37223 sloppy Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:49:35 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37223 Its kinda hard to play when you know they are getting your ticket to AAA ready every night. Minaya gutted the entire relief corp support and the result was Mota/Sele/Schoeneweis. The Mets getting little for Gotay if he's gone will have nothing to do with talent. The guy has no options. Nobody's paying high for a guy getting DFA'd soon. Its kinda hard to play when you know they are getting your ticket to AAA ready every night. Minaya gutted the entire relief corp support and the result was Mota/Sele/Schoeneweis.
    The Mets getting little for Gotay if he’s gone will have nothing to do with talent. The guy has no options. Nobody’s paying high for a guy getting DFA’d soon.

    ]]>         By: Keith http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37220 Keith Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:31:19 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37220 Did you just start watching the team in '06 scoop? Bell showed a lot of promise in '05 only to be shuttled back and forth a million times in '06. He is another example of a young player the Mets jerked around. As for those other guys, I gave you mitigating circumstances as to why the team went with those players due to their inexperience. Maine, Gomez, Perez, and Smith were all forced into duty because the team had no other options. Scoop, did you actually watch Gotay roping doubles last year? The kid can hit from the left side, he used to be a top prospect, and is still only 25. Did you just start watching the team in ‘06 scoop?

    Bell showed a lot of promise in ‘05 only to be shuttled back and forth a million times in ‘06. He is another example of a young player the Mets jerked around.

    As for those other guys, I gave you mitigating circumstances as to why the team went with those players due to their inexperience. Maine, Gomez, Perez, and Smith were all forced into duty because the team had no other options.

    Scoop, did you actually watch Gotay roping doubles last year? The kid can hit from the left side, he used to be a top prospect, and is still only 25.

    ]]>         By: sloppy http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37216 sloppy Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:15:08 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37216 Can't hit lefties, defense is no good, yet you tell us he (Church) is a good palyer. What's the difference? By the way church got a hit off a lefty reliever. The ball is on the way to Cooperstown. Another good inning by man Joe Smith. Can’t hit lefties, defense is no good, yet you tell us he (Church) is a good palyer. What’s the difference?
    By the way church got a hit off a lefty reliever. The ball is on the way to Cooperstown.
    Another good inning by man Joe Smith.

    ]]>         By: scoopcoop http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37212 scoopcoop Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:04:56 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37212 Huge supporters of Heath Bell don't impress me w/their BB acumen. He threw a straight as straight can be fastball and could not get anything else over. He got rocked all the time. If you want to criticize Mets find out why no one knew how to show him to throw that nasty slider he now has which has made him a pretty good setup guy. When/if Gotay is traded don't be surprised that not much comes back in return. That will be a pretty good indication that everyone knows he is just a spot player. You basically agreed w/my analysis (can't hit lefties, not good defense), but yet the guy is good? It is always possible he could improve but Willie and Alomar spent days and days working w/him and he did not Gomez-Mets could have went w/Rickie Ledee or a host of other guys before Gomez Maine-he was not a proven talent when he came to Mets Perez-he looked like he was headed back to Mexico when Mets got him Smith-he had like 2inn in Brooklyn. Certainly not proven talent. Ring-maybe he makes poor Atl BP this yr Lindstrom-I'll give you this one. It was a mistake Owens-his goofy delivery finally caught up to him as he was hurt most of last yr. Looking at Marlins ST stats, he is not even listed. Huge supporters of Heath Bell don’t impress me w/their BB acumen. He threw a straight as straight can be fastball and could not get anything else over. He got rocked all the time. If you want to criticize Mets find out why no one knew how to show him to throw that nasty slider he now has which has made him a pretty good setup guy.

    When/if Gotay is traded don’t be surprised that not much comes back in return. That will be a pretty good indication that everyone knows he is just a spot player. You basically agreed w/my analysis (can’t hit lefties, not good defense), but yet the guy is good? It is always possible he could improve but Willie and Alomar spent days and days working w/him and he did not

    Gomez-Mets could have went w/Rickie Ledee or a host of other guys before Gomez

    Maine-he was not a proven talent when he came to Mets

    Perez-he looked like he was headed back to Mexico when Mets got him

    Smith-he had like 2inn in Brooklyn. Certainly not proven talent.

    Ring-maybe he makes poor Atl BP this yr

    Lindstrom-I’ll give you this one. It was a mistake

    Owens-his goofy delivery finally caught up to him as he was hurt most of last yr. Looking at Marlins ST stats, he is not even listed.

    ]]>         By: Keith http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/comment-page-1/#comment-37196 Keith Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:31:45 +0000 http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2008/03/21/injury-updates-9/#comment-37196 Thanks slop. When I evaluate a player I look at a bunch of things. Stats are definitely part of the equation, but I also look at how a guy plays the game. Take a kid like Burgos. Yeah he throws hard and has nice stuff, but he's just a thrower. I was a much bigger fan of Heath Bell and I wish I had posted on here back then because I was a huge supporter of Bell's. Another good compare/contrast is Milledge/Gomez. I think Milledge will turn out to be a better ballplayer than Gomez because Milledge had more advanced baseball skills while Gomez just looked like a track star playing baseball, especially at the plate. Now Gomez could evolve how Reyes did and smooth over those rough patches, but that doesn't happen a whole lot. The one player who I was totally wrong about was Victor Diaz. I loved his approach at the plate and thought he had the potential to be a solid corner OF. However, he pouted when he didn't get his way and didn't take care of his body and he never panned out. Thanks slop. When I evaluate a player I look at a bunch of things. Stats are definitely part of the equation, but I also look at how a guy plays the game.

    Take a kid like Burgos. Yeah he throws hard and has nice stuff, but he’s just a thrower. I was a much bigger fan of Heath Bell and I wish I had posted on here back then because I was a huge supporter of Bell’s.

    Another good compare/contrast is Milledge/Gomez. I think Milledge will turn out to be a better ballplayer than Gomez because Milledge had more advanced baseball skills while Gomez just looked like a track star playing baseball, especially at the plate. Now Gomez could evolve how Reyes did and smooth over those rough patches, but that doesn’t happen a whole lot.

    The one player who I was totally wrong about was Victor Diaz. I loved his approach at the plate and thought he had the potential to be a solid corner OF. However, he pouted when he didn’t get his way and didn’t take care of his body and he never panned out.

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