Mets Chat: What will they do in left?
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- March
- 6
It really doesn’t make much sense to give up a lot to bring in an outfielder if they are certain they’ll get Moises Alou. My guess is unless something falls in their lap they’ll go with either Angel Pagan or Brady Clark.
They could do worse.
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on Thursday, March 6th, 2008 at 8:54 pm by John Delcos.
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Kenny Lofton….
Yeah right, Lofton…. We need another lefty like we need another injury.
I have no problem with Pagan as the starter for a while. He is the right age to have a good year, and had enough time (and acceptable results) last year to reasonably expect that he can be productive. Maybe not to Alou’s level, but better D, more speed, and no need to come out late in games.
Even Clark could fill in for a stretch. Or mix and match Endy and Pagan, assuming Endy is even healthy enough to start the season (and stay healthy if he does, no guarantee there)
Bring back George Theodore! Seriously, try a Clark/Pagan shuffle.
yeah, there’s so many people yelling for the Mets to get Nady, but I just don’t see it. The Pirates are not going to hand back Nady after they gave up Perez to get him. They could have traded him before and they resisted, so its not going to take some meager package to get him. No way you send Pelfrey, and if Joe Smith or Jon Niese were included, I’d be hesitant as well. Obviously not Fernando either. I just don’t see how we won’t overpay for an eventual backup in that situation. It’s a bad idea.
Lofton’s almost as near to the end of the road as Alou is but at least he just costs money? Hell, the same could be said of Bonds, really.
The Mets would be dealing from a point of weakness and have almost nothing decent to trade for an outfielder… I think the Mets are pretty much stuck working from within on this one.
Though I know that the Nationals were really fleecing teams for five-tool young sky’s-the-limit outfield prospects this off-season… any chance we could get ahold of one of them?
We still wouldn’t have a left fielder if we had Milledge, so what is your point?
Because then we’d have Beltran and Milledge instead of Beltran and Church?
If Alou and Beltran were both healthy producing, it would be a lot easier to limp along with as blah and one-dimensional third outfielder as Church.
Now that it’s Clark/Endy/Pagan/Question-Mark in left, it makes the loss of an impact player for the sake of a media-friendly scrub all the more painful.
I know it’s early, but the way things look right now I think Pagan deserves the starting LF job if Alou is not ready. There’s a reason why he’s playing so well, and there have been a lot of good reports about him lately. He looks a little bigger in the pictures than I remember him before. We need a guy who can get the extra base hit for us, which is why right now I prefer Pagan over Endy.
I just hope Church will be back soon.
Beltran and Milledge instead of Beltran and Church is at best a wash. For all the hype about “5 tools,” Milledge couldn’t steal any bases. Great arm, but his fielding instincts were poor.
I’m fine with Pagan and Endy in LF. And if F-Mart does well in the minors, I’d like to see him come up this year when Alou makes his inevitable 2nd trip to the DL later on.
“it makes the loss of an impact player for the sake of a media-friendly scrub all the more painful.”
Your act is growing tiresome. I’m not one to shout down someone with a contrary opinion, but you’re just ill informed and incredibly biased for Milledge and against Church. Church is a more accomplished MLB ball player than Milledge. Period. It may not be by a lot, but he is. He had a nice season last year. No, not an all star season, but a season worthy of a starting job. You don’t even try to be objective. Do you even look at the stats that have been posted?
“For all the hype about “5 tools,†Milledge couldn’t steal any bases. Great arm, but his fielding instincts were poor.”
Not to mention that having 5 tools means nothing unless one or two of them are superlative tools. Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder only have one tool… but their tool is that they can hit the ball into the next county. Their one superlative tool will make them bigger stars than Milledge and his 5 tools ever will be.
I can name you a starting lineup of players with 5 tools who only turned out to be average ball players at best. Unless you’re Griffey, ARod, or Bonds, who all had 5 superlative tools, being a 5 tool player is one of the most over used and inaccurate measurements of a player’s future ability.
This isn’t football. This is baseball. Michael Jordan was an unbelievable athlete and he stunk at baseball. Deion Sanders… nowhere close as good in baseball as he was in football. Baseball is a sport of skill. It helps to be athletic, but in the end, you need to be able to hit the round ball with the round bat.
Milledge was never given the consistent playing time to develop his defense or to be on-base enough to stretch out his game and start trying for steals… not to mention that the fifth tool of “speed” is not only about steals but also about stretching singles into doubles and doubles into triples, a talent he certainly showed flashes of.
There is no such thing as “fielding instinct”... there is the slowly built judgement and muscle memory of playing consistently at a major league level.
He was never given the opportunity to fully develop those skills because, at every single turn, he was held back because the management wanted to trot out washed-up former stars that would draw headlines… Floyd, Green, even Alou to an extent… but would either not produce or produce briefly and then go back down with injury.
Without fully being given the position, you can’t say what Milledge could’ve accomplished… just as it took years of trusting Reyes and Wright with their positions for them to blossom into all-stars.
Whereas Church is nearly thirty and is exactly what his years of statistics show him to be… a marginally acceptable half of a left-field platoon masquerading as a full-time right fielder.
One more thing and then I’m done for the night.
I liked Lastings, I really did. I pulled hard for him and I wish the Mets had given him some more time. However, he did not take advantage of the opportunities given to him, and he was probably a little overhyped. Would I have liked to have him on the team still? Sure. But do I understand why the trade was made? Yup.
The Mets traded Milledge’s potential upside (which the organization obviously believed wasn’t limitless) to get both get younger and solidify two positions: RF and C. Are there better RFers and Catchers out there? Sure there are, but Church and Schneider are fine role players. Our problem is that two guys we were expecting to hit in the middle of the order, Delgado and Alou, seem like they’re not going to be able to hack it for the long haul this season. Unfortunately, this means there will be more pressure put on Church and Schneider than originally anticipated. Hopefully they can rise to the occasion. But if they can’t, Lastings Milledge wouldn’t have been our saving grace.
“because the management wanted to trot out washed-up former stars that would draw headlines… Floyd, Green, even Alou to an extent”
I have a fun game. Let’s play revisionist historian. Floyd was signed waaaay before we even knew who Milledge was. And Cliff had a great ‘05 before struggling through an injury riddled ‘06. Let’s also not forget WHY the Mets acquired Green… because Lastings couldn’t hack it when called up to take Nady’s spot.
You want to talk about a guy who was never given a fair shot, look no further than Ryan Church. He had very impressive minor league numbers and the Nats never gave him a shot against lefties. Jim Bowden was more interested in reacquiring his former Reds.
“just as it took years of trusting Reyes and Wright with their positions for them to blossom into all-stars.”
Uh, Wright and Reyes pretty much came up and held their own from the start and were all stars by their 2nd full seasons. They earned that trust.
Reyes blossomed immediately?
Holy God, man, where were you when there were people demanding Kaz effing Matsui take the field over Reyes?
And… considering that Milledge still hasn’t been given one full season yet, getting jerked around for the sake of burnt-out sluggers…
I think when Milledge GETS to his second full season, he’ll be doing JUST fine and Minaya’ll still be trying to get… God… Adam Dunn or some other such tragic nonsense to fill an outfield corner.
“Holy God, man, where were you when there were people demanding Kaz effing Matsui take the field over Reyes?”
Who demanded this? I don’t remember this at all. In Reyes’ first 200 plus ABs he hit: .307/.334/.434.
So again. Please look at the stats. Reyes and Wright both started off much better than Milledge did… and at younger ages, mind you.
“Reyes blossomed immediately?”
Since when does “held his own” translate into “blossomed immediately?”
Seriously. Read more carefully and take a look at some stats for a change.
Milledge is gone. Get over it already.
” Jim Bowden was more interested in reacquiring his former Reds.” Oh you mean kinda like Minaya being interested only in getting back his former Expos?”
You’ll never get the point Keith. You trade your high ranking kids for stars, you don’t trade them for journeymen.
Also, you are very presumptive when you assume the Nats didn’t give Church a fair chance. You must be saying every AAAA player just got screwed, but fact is they are just AAAA players. You have shown you are nothing more than a fantasy baseball fan and you have shown the last several datys that your knowledge of real baseball is poor to non existent. You also think that your holy grail of assinine stats prove a players worth. If that were the case why in the name of wasting money woulkd any team every send a scout to watch a professional player. They’d fo to the stat book and make all their moves. You have become more tiring and old than Mike C by far. At least Mike C knows baseball is a game of judgement and skills that go far beyond any stat that you have spewn out at us to defend every journeyman or has been that Minaya picks up.
Hows’ Church doing… What you’re gonna see now is a guy who will use his little mishap as an excuse until the day Randolph and Minaya vomit over his whining and finally send him to wherever your your minor league team is these days. You think Alou takes long to recover. You ain’t seen nothing yet.
Argue all you want that Mets should have done this or that, but it is what it is. And all I can say to most of you is think analytically, not emotionally. When you think emotionally in life, you make mistakes. And if Mets panic like most of you are doing and make a trade now, they are gonna get fleeced b/c teams know they want the 1B/LF/RH that is on their team.
And since Mets have no position player depth, no SP depth and little BP depth, it makes little sense to pay Peter and rob Paul.
The will have to hope Alou and Delgado will give them similar production to last yr and that whomever fills in is not an automatic out. I don’t believe that Pagan/Endy, Anderson/Easely are automatic outs.
Hence, better SP (if Pedro can go 25 starts) and BP will have to carry them thru.
Right now the SP should be able to give Mets 65 wins maybe 70 (18 Santana, 12 Pedro, 15ea JM/OP, 5-10 Elduqe/Pelfrey). Teams that have SP that wins 65 games or more, make the playoffs.
You are correct scoopcoop the Mets should not make a trade. The numbers for the starters however, do go down regardless of performance if there is no offense. You’re probably too young to have seen it, but the 1970 Mets had the same great pitching the 69 Mets had but couldn’t win because a limited 69 offense became a non existent 70 offense.
“At least Mike C knows baseball is a game of judgement and skills that go far beyond any stat that you have spewn out at us to defend every journeyman or has been that Minaya picks up.”
Oh really, Ghost of Bad Mets Trades. Did you gloss over this: “Not to mention that having 5 tools means nothing unless one or two of them are superlative tools. Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder only have one tool… but their tool is that they can hit the ball into the next county. Their one superlative tool will make them bigger stars than Milledge and his 5 tools ever will be.”
Pretty sure that’s a scout based analysis of why I feel trading Milledge wasn’t that big of a deal. Hey, I could be wrong, but none of his 5 tools “wow” me.
You must have also missed this: “Baseball is a sport of skill. It helps to be athletic, but in the end, you need to be able to hit the round ball with the round bat.”
”...that go far beyond any stat that you have spewn out at us to defend every journeyman or has been that Minaya picks up.”
You know, it’s funny, I don’t remember seeing you around here for that long. Don’t pigeon hole me into being an Omar sympathizer or a stat freak because I’m not jumping to conclusions on Ryan Church like the rest of you. Yes, I am predominantly basing my position on Church based off his stats, because I haven’t seen him play all that much. A guy like Mike Pelfrey I was adamant about the Mets keeping because he has superb raw ability. I was pumped when we acquired Ollie because he has filthy stuff. I’ve even mentioned on numerous occasions that I wish we had given Milledge more of a chance. And truth be told, I would rather have Milledge over Church. But that doesn’t make Church a scrub or a AAAA player. I bet you guys were all killing Nady when we traded for him too.
So yeah, stats don’t tell the whole story of a player, but neither do his “tools.” You say I’v become tired, well, I’m tired of people making conclusory statements without backing them up. No Mets fan can call Church a scrub unless they watched every Nationals game last season. And even then, I would have to reserve judgment because his stats would indicate otherwise.
It just boggles my mind how people can have little to no knowledge of a player and jump to conclusions without looking at his stats or even watching him play.
“You trade your high ranking kids for stars, you don’t trade them for journeymen.”
I agree. I guess that’s why we traded Gomez and Guerra for Johan, while all Milledge netted us was Church and Schneider. Another comment no one has ever responded to was when I pointed out that the Twins did not want Milledge. The guy’s stock plummeted.
“You also think that your holy grail of assinine stats prove a players worth.”
Lastly, the game of baseball is deeply rooted in stats. This is part of the reason why everyone gets themselves all worked up over steroids… because it taints the record books. And record books contain…STATS! Again, stats don’t tell the whole story, but they record what actually happened. Your eyes can deceive you, but a .230 hitter is a .230 hitter.
“You have shown you are nothing more than a fantasy baseball fan and you have shown the last several datys that your knowledge of real baseball is poor to non existent.”
And I take umbrage to this statement. I want specific examples of my non existent baseball knowledge. Seriously, because I don’t think we should sacrifice every time we have a guy on 1B I don’t know baseball? Or the fact that I prefer Schneider over LoDuca (eschewing stats) because I place value on the intangibles of a defensive catcher? Or because I don’t just make conclusory statements about players without having a chance to watch them play or without pulling up their stats?
Really, I want to know what makes you think I’m a “fantasy baseball player.” What’s funny is I haven’t played fantasy baseball since high school (I’m out of college now) and I happen to think a lot of the fantasy baseball stats are overrated anyway. I’m interested in stats that correlate to winning.
slop, yes if offense is so poor it will of course have effect on pitching. But as I stated, I assuming Delgado and Alou and their fill-ins give the same production as last yr. I don’t think this is too optimistic.
Under this scenario, and also assuming that Reyes goes back to his 06 level, Wright does his usual and of course Beltran and Castillo are healthy, the offense should provide enough for Santana to win 18, Pedro 12, JM/OP 15 and Eld/Pelf 5-10.
No one should have been under the dillusion that the Mets don’t have issues, but as long as the above guys stay healthy and Alou and Delgado can repeat 07 numbers, Mets will be in playoffs.
Then it comes down to pitching. Santana/Pedro is as good as any tandem out their. So, they’ll have a shot to go all the way.
Bottom line-right now Mets are not the 80’s teams that did/could have dominated. But hopefully over the next few yrs they can pickup a couple of key FAs and Pelfrey and FMart become stars. If so, Mets will be a playoff team for a long time.
That is all you can ask for.
I see Mr Keith why you are in love with Church… Wa Wa Wa…. Cry cry cry…. I guess you little metsies have to blast each other because outside wright/reyes/santana your team is more overpaid for so little results then the yakees. new york CHOKERS. You made America forget the 1964 phillies. you will choke again this year except it won’t be noticed because it will start 31 mar and your precious omar will be unemployed by the end of the year. another decade of doom coming for the little metsies, number 2 in their own city forever. You knock us but unlike your lousy GM, we have a plan and in a year or 2 we’ll be looking down at you just like the phils/braves and marlins will…..
I can see you have no conception of math and numbers. Actually, from a win/per cost basis, the Yankees are one of the poorest performing teams in the major leagues. They spent over $200 million dollars on their payroll and the furthest they got last year was 1 win into the playoffs. Pitiful.
Also, mathematically, the Phillies’ ‘64 collapse is still bigger (more improbable) than what happened to the Mets last year.
And despite Omar’s faults, Bowden is one of the worst GMs in the GM. He’ll never get the Nats anywhere that matters.
I disagree. Try telling this to Beltran or Chavez, two OFers who were born with better instincts to play the OF than most others. And try telling this to someone who has seen Roger Cedeno trying to navigate the OF. No matter how much time he was given in the OF, he would fail to build the judgment and muscle memory for playing well at that position. Roger Cedeno’s muscles had permanent amnesia.
You prove my point little metsie… the yankees make the playoffs every year… the second team in new york hardly ever…... be proud of your loser history pal…. bowden bad, he can’t compare to that loser you call a GM….
and sloppy guy… you know trash talk. we have blogs, find em and we’ll have fun trash talking….. you really coming to our park? good luck? if you wear a church or schneider uniform you’ll see a lot of us laughing at you bro…..
If you spend $200 million on your payroll, you better make the playoffs every year or the GM should be fired. That is little accomplishment, especially when the Yankees get bounced from the playoffs every year from the first round (since ‘04).
The Mets at least got to game 7 of the NLCS in ‘06 and the Yankees haven’t been there since ‘04. That is nothing but a big failure on their part.
The Nats/Expos history is one of the most dismal in the majors, no doubt due in part to the lack of interest in baseball in Montreal. But it’s pathetic nonetheless. And Bowden ranks near the bottom in terms of GMs. Don’t just ask a Mets fan, look at all the articles where they rank GMs. Omar is near the top and Bowden is near the very bottom. He’s a pure idiot.
DC, I feel bad for you. I really do. You root for a team that has not only has a dismal history but one of the worst GMs in the game. Just google “worst general managers baseball†and you’ll get lists that feature Bowden prominently like this one:
http://baseballevolution.com/guest/prattgms.html
That guy ranks Bowden as the #1 Bozo General Manager in the majors, lol.
DC, I feel bad for you. I really do. You root for a team that not only has a dismal history, but also one of the worst GMs in the game. Just google “worst general managers baseball†and you’ll get lists that feature Bowden prominently like this one:
baseballevolution.com/guest/prattgms.html
That guy ranks Bowden as the #1 Bozo GM in the majors, lol.
hey DC dope; don’t compliment me… I admit these guys are stat heads and believe the internet is the gospel buy hey, ast least they aren’t you.
I’ll say this for your owner. He put up seats at reasonable prices, something these Wilpons will never do. So even tho you are a DC jerk your owner is ok, and I look forward to going down there wearing my # 92 Super Bowl 42 jersey, you know super bowl champs, something your deadskins haven’t done in so long its almost as pethetic as the Eagles….. Maybe I’ll replace it with my 86 Darryl Strawberry champion baseball jersey… We’ve waited a while but hey, how long its been for you guys? 70-80 years or so? Of course my DC Navy Yard bullet proof vest will be underneath… Now go home read some more yo momma books and come back when you get good at this.
We can wait till the last week and see who gets cut. No need to trade – not that we have anything left anyway.
Keith – Have you learned nothing yet? Mike C will be talking up LM ALL SEASON LONG. Just like last year.
One last word on LM. Yes he may turn out to be a good player, even a very good one. My question is if he is really on the list of top 10 young MLB players presented on this blog why did no one want him? There are many teams who need players.
He will definitely bring it when he visits Shea. If the Met pitchers are smart they stay off the fastball down the middle and throw junk off the plate.
But don’t worry, we all know Bowden is such a fine upstanding citizen:
He has Tony LaRussa disease.
Should have given the link because there are more nuggets in there about Bowden. He refused to take a breath-alcohol test (he also has Jim Leyritz disease) and got into a scrape with his girlfriend.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2412654
No wonder he likes the bad boys. They remind him of himself.