Willie Randolph on Roger Clemens being investigated by Congress for possible perjury charges: “I havenâ€™t thought about it. Itâ€™s no concern of mine.â€™â€™
Whatâ€™s interesting about Willie and the Clemens thing is the news that came out today that both Willie and Down recommended to Omar that the Mets hire McNamee. This says to me that Willie and Down were friendly and sympathetic to McNamee. They, along with Pettitte, were torn by the Congressional face-off between McNamee and Clemens. They didnâ€™t automatically take the side of Clemens, as did many in Yankeeland. Itâ€™s amazing that for those who knew both men well, so few if any have aligned themselves squarely with Clemens. I think this reflects on the respective credibility and integrity of McNamee and Clemens.
In another thread, it was suggested that steroids cheaters should not be treated harshly because it may appear at times that DUI offenders are not treated so harshly. Again, these are separate issues, and there is no reason to condone either DUI offenders OR PEDs cheaters. Those using a DUI comparison to apologize for the PEDs cheaters are making a false diversionary argument. Itâ€™s a classic red herring fallacy.
Your assertion JK is totall incorrect. Small unimportant issues are regularly brought to the country’s attention by weak politicians who can not and will not solve serious problems. If the PED issue was roid rage and the possibility that roids causes people to kill others, then they would be equal issues, but since the concern is primarily with records and free publicity for Congressman it is a phony issue that hides the important issues facing this country. Its afun issue because it really doesn’t matter very much in the big picture. Its like the Church trade. In the big picture who cares, but we have fun building him up or pounding on him, probably because it doesn’t matter.
“In another thread, it was suggested that steroids cheaters should not be treated harshly because it may appear at times that DUI offenders are not treated so harshly. Those using a DUI comparison to apologize for the PEDs cheaters are making a false diversionary argument. Itâ€™s a classic red herring fallacy.”
Uh, no, that’s not what I was doing. I was simply pointing out how this PED stuff has been getting an inordinate amount of press, while stuff like Leonard Little killing someone while driving under the influence, or Katrina ravaged New Orleans get little to no press anymore. Everyday you open the paper there is a story about steroids.
Excellent Keith!!! You nailed this one!
Sloppy, and which assertion is that? Can you be precise?
Even bringing up Congress is a red herring. The issue here is the appropriate response to those who cheat with PEDs. Congress had nothing to do with Bondsâ€™ predicament, for example. A rant about Congress is irrelevant to a moral judgment about Bonds.
I was simply pointing out how this PED stuff has been getting an inordinate amount of press
Ohhhhh, well then â€¦ I misunderstood you, Keith. When I read your posts I was positive you were trying to say we should treat PEDs cheaters lightly because you didnâ€™t feel DUI offenders were being treated harshly enough and that is worse than doing PEDs. I didnâ€™t realize you were merely talking about how the press likes to concentrate on the hot and new stories of the day. Which is of course only natural because that is what most people want to read about. Whatâ€™s new. Not whatâ€™s old. Itâ€™s called â€œnewsâ€ after all.
How about a moral judgemnt about you. A moral judgement about someone who has been convicted of nothing is a sad thing to do. a moral judgement about someone who judges based on what is fun and nasty to others is more in order. Are you the judge and jury are you the creator?? a moral judgment about your hoier than thou attitude should be reviewed instead of being god about others. Your write up is exactly what is wrong with this countryt. Placing emphasis on things that don’t matter and deflect from things that need to be done in this country. You make your moral judgement about Bonds. I’ll leave moral judgement to God.
sloppy, if you want to make a moral judgment about me, that’s fine and dandy. But you know nothing about me. And I don’t think anyone is interested in your opinion of me.
A moral judgment about someone where there exists credible evidence is totally appropriate. Besides, an actual conviction for Bonds is most likely just a matter of time. All the typos in the world won’t get him off the hook, lol.
I am a baseball fan who pays good money to go to games, subscribe to games on cable, pay for hats and other memorabilia. It is my right to have opinions about the game and that includes players like Bonds who spent years cheating while playing it.
Heck, even if I weren’t a baseball fan, it’s my right to express my opinion of someone who cheats that way. You don’t have to be a baseball fan to know Bonds (and now Clemens) was a big cheater.
And as a parent, I want my kids to know that cheating is wrong. Letting these cheaters off the hook and rewarding them is not the message or lesson I want my kids to take away from these incidents. It is important for these cheats to be treated appropriately.
You’ve explained the issue very well – the problem isn’t the athletes – it’s the example. Thousands of children all across the country have begun to use illegal substances in order to be like their heros. Bad choice, but understandable in these days of scholarships and big money in pro sports. Too bad that the unions and the commissioners are interested only in lining their pockets, not in presenting a game played by the rules – of the country, not the clubhouse.
Roger Clemens is in trouble because he doesn’t understand that sworn testimony before a Congressional Committee means you must tell the truth when questioned – no matter the subject.
Thank you. I was just going to post that. A bigger problem than whether they cheated or broke federal laws or lied to congress or prosecutors is that children are taking PEDs.
12 year olds have no business taking hgh or steroids.
I understand that athletes are often role models to thousands of kids but let’s not let those kids or their parents or coaches off the hook for their steroid use. It is common knowledge to everybody (from kids to parents and coaches to teachers) that steroids and PEDs are bad for you. I knew as much when I was 12 from classes in school and from my parents. It’s the job of parents/coaches/teachers to make sure that this lesson is learned and that kids don’t use steroids and PEDs.
The reality is that if Barry Bonds was a utility player and Roger Clemens was a middle reliever, we’re not having this conversation and Congress isn’t involved. I get that cheating is bad but does Congress open up investigations every time men and women cheat on their spouses and significant others. Seems to me that Bonds and Clemens made two mistakes: (a) they lied to federal investigators and (b) they set historical records (HR record and 7-time Cy Young award winner). Without (b), there probably wouldn’t have been any federal investigators to lie to since the government wouldn’t have cared.
I don’t buy this whole nonsense that kids use roids because they see their ‘role models’ doing it. Please!! If anything that is just a rationalization. An excuse. “Uh,...,uh,...,I thought it was alright because Barry Bonds was doing it.”. Teenagers use steroid FOR THE OBVIOUS REASONS. To become more muscular and attractive and intimidating and also to become stronger, faster and better at their sports. The vast majority of teenagers that use steroids don’t even play a sport. I don’t buy this whole ‘example’ argument at all. Its grandstanding plain and simple. If it makes you feel better to cop a morally self-righteous attitude toward the steroid users by all means enjoy that feeling but you don’t fool me.
But then again, kids are invulnerable. Nothing will hurt them. Or they may feel that if it hits them at 40 they won’t care. Either way, if the pros don’t do it ( which you can control with testing ) they won’t.
If the pros do it and profit from it the kids will. Many pro athletes are from the economic underclass. In part because the odds of getting there are long and the parents of middle/upper class will push their kids into more stable profitable careers rather than the less stable ones like sports and arts.
This steroids stuff is “old” news. Everything we’re talking about happened years ago. Meanwhile, New Orleans is still struggling to rebuild.
Plus, this steroids talk has had legs. Its been in the news since the MR came out.
As for excusing cheaters, well yeah, I guess you could say I am saying we should “excuse” the cheaters. Even George Mitchell didn’t recommend MLB taking any action against the past PED users. The reasons are fairly simple: there was no prescribed punishment against PEDs, there was no testing policy, and the only evidence that is out there is oral evidence. While oral testimony is certainly strong evidence, I don’t think you can start suspending guys without them actually failing a test.
Fair enuf. So now we have congress authorize a national testing policy since the argument goes.
1) people cheated
2) no testing policy
3) no punishment for cheaters
4) cant punish what you do not know about
So if you have a national testing policy with a national punishment policy since the organizations involved do not want to deal with the problem we will have ‘solved’ the problem.
you let all the cheaters into the respective halls of shame because well no one cares.
but you solve the problem for the future and bonds and clemens are hailed as the all time best in history.
OK guys, here’s some New News:
Feb. 28, 2008, 1:40PM
FBI starts Clemens probe
WASHINGTON—The FBI has opened an investigation into whether baseball great Roger Clemens lied to Congress when he denied taking steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs.
Law enforcement officials say the inquiry will focus on whether Clemens or his former personal trainer Brian McNamee lied when they testified under oath about the use of steroids.
In testimony Feb 13 , Clemens told Congress he never used either drug. McNamee testified that he injected the seven-time Cy Young Award winner with steroids and human growth hormone at least 16 times from 1998 to 2001.
The FBI inquiry was prompted by a request Thursday from the House Oversight Committee, which singled out statements by Clemens as possibly false.
Well Keith ans Sloppy, I hate to tell you guys this but it is obvious on this board and in most of America that steroids are a heck a lot more important to most people than thousands of homeless people, billions stolen dollars in fraudulent contracts etc. And shouldn’t the FBI spend its valuable taxpayer resources in checking out Roger Clemens then in checking out some possible terorist cell!!!
Come on guys, where’s your priorities. I know I want my tax money going to put Clemens in the brig!
not sure what economics and housing the homeless has to do with the FBI..
Annie, thanks for chiming in. Your point is actually yet another reason we shouldnâ€™t tolerate PEDs cheaters. Because PEDs can be dangerous to our kids from a health perspective. My point was actually about setting an example of not cheating. About playing sports cleanly on an even playing field. Thatâ€™s important to me. Yet a third reason not to tolerate the behavior of Clemens and Bonds is to set an example of what happens when you go around lying to federal investigators. There are a lot of important lessons to be gleaned from the Clemens and Bonds situations
Without (b), there probably wouldnâ€™t have been any federal investigators to lie to since the government wouldnâ€™t have cared.
Tejada set no historical records. Nor did Palmiero. They investigated Palmeiro for perjury and are doing so now with Tejada.
If you lie to them they care, bigwig or not.
Even George Mitchell didnâ€™t recommend MLB taking any action against the past PED users.
Mitchell was talking about formal retroactive punishment there. What is at issue here is whether or not you give the most egregious cheaters jobs, contracts, and special honors like being inducted into the HOF. I say no.
I for one am glad my tax dollars have been used to help police steroids usage in baseball and to attempt to put perjurers like Clemens and Bonds behind bars.
I cannot beleive that you JK are glad to spend your taxpayer money on chasing Roger Clemens for perjury. You can pay my taxes and you can come down to the hood and spend your nights with me as we try to keep kids away from drugs in programs that this gov’t cut the hell out of saying there was no money, and you can watch the uncontrolled increase in real drug use that destroys our youth again because this government doesn’t have money to guard our borders and stop trafficking of the stuff you should worry about your kids taking. Your priorities are trotally screwed up JK. Get a real life and tell me how important Roger clemens is.
Fair enough about your point that Tejada set no historical records. Please note that he did win an MVP award and is a former All-Star. As for Palmiero, he is one of three people in the history of the game with both at least 500 HR and 3,000 hits (I’d think that is somewhat historical).
To clarify my point: federal investigators aren’t generally looking to interview the small fish (mediocre relievers or utility players). Had Bonds, Clemens, Tejada and Palmiero been scrubs, the feds and/or Congress would have been much less likely to investigate them. Without an investigation, there would have been no opportunity for those individuals to lie to federal investigators.
CP, while both Tejada and Palmeiro are big star players, neither has technically set an historical record.
I think your reasons why Clemens and Bonds are now in hot water for perjury arenâ€™t very accurate. While the feds may have decided it was wise to make an example of both these big name stars (as they are likely to do with many high profile people like Martha Stewart and Leona Helmsley) in the case of Clemens, he brought it upon himself. He more or less asked for it by aggressively and harshly attacking the Mitchell report which is in essence a product of the feds and Congress. I think any player who did the same thing would have brought similar scrutiny upon themselves from Congress. As for Bonds, again, it had little to do with him being a big player and more to do with simply lying to the feds during an investigation. If you donâ€™t think so, then how do you explain Stubblefield, Trevor Graham and Tammy Thomas?
Omar, why should I pay your taxes? I’m sure your prescription for the use of tax dollars doesn’t jive with mine in all areas, but I’m not going to ask you to pay my taxes.
Going after perjurers whether they are in business, sports or politics is important because without doing so, the integrity of all federal investigations is compromised, and then you’ll really see your tax dollars go to waste. No, Roger Clemens isn’t important. But making sure he doesn’t go scott free after telling the feds a million lies is.
Someone who thinks that NOT going after Clemens or Bonds is going to suddenly solve all our economic/drug/border issues is totally delusional. So I think this is just another â€œeither/orâ€ red herring argument that doesn’t hold water. If you are tolerant and accepting of steroids abusers, just come right out and say so instead of hiding behind some weak rationale.
Actually saying Sen Mitchell did not recommend any action is not saying anything. Remember our protector of all things baseball ( Mr. Selig ) edited the report before it went live.
JK: You are a blind man and unfortunately, trying to get me to say I am intolerant of PED users is absurd and insulting. what you don’t want to see is reality. There is only XX $$ to go around. If you think that having a meaningless Congressional hearing and following it up with a perjury charge investigation is one of America’s high priorities than you must live in the perfect ivory tower and have no idea or concern about true suffering in the country and the world, and while I won’t pursue this discussion further since you are cold and heartless to those in need, with you I will end by saying it is attitudes like yours that make it harder to focus on big time needs and problems in America. So enjoy the suffering of a rich man, who I’m sure is wrong and did bad things. But if you think locking up Clemens is going to end PEDs talk to the Olympics, and if you need Roger Clemens in jail to teach your kids right from wrong than I feel sorry for you, not them, I’m sure they already know right from wrong. I only hope your fun doesn’t end up coming at the cost of something serious to one of yours. Your a typical diverter. And Sir, I know that the ills of society will not be solved by not chasing Clemens. I also know it is a typical fraudulaent atrtitude to sayt go after him and then say there ain’t no $$ to help those in need or those who need just one thing to be kept from real problems. You’re a lucky man to not need this kind of help, but you are a heartless man and that is very sad.
JK, how is it a weak rationale? There are far more important issues out there than whether or not MLB and the other 3 major sports are clean.
I’ll go back to the Katrina well. Our government’s response to the situation in NOLA was reprehensible. That community is STILL struggling to rebuild and were basically left to fend for themselves. Sure, there was a ton of aid that came in during the immediate weeks after Katrina hit, but those funds slowly stopped coming in.
Additionally, we’re fighting a war on terror in the Middle East, the dollar is dropping in value, there is the sub-prime mortgage crisis, more important social issues like gay marriage and abortion. Plus we have a very freaking important election coming up. The media and American public’s attention would be put to much better use if we paid less attention to this nonsense and more attention to the real issues right in front of our faces.
And this is not an “either/or” argument. No one is saying that nothing should be done about PEDs. The point is it shouldn’t take a Congressional hearing, a Report that cost millions, and all the analysis that is going on. You can not punish retroactively. You just can’t. So going through this whole song and a dance is pointless. So institute a more stringent testing policy with year long suspensions going forward and call it a day.
Lastly, I’m with Omar on this one. There are people at my school who don’t follow sports at all. I know a girl who couldn’t tell Roger Clemens apart from Roger Rabbit. Do you think she gives a crap about this? Not to mention sports fans like Omar and myself who feel that our limited resources would be put to better use if less time was spent on steroids and more time was spent on issues that affect the Americans public.
But you’re right JK, they do have to go after the perjurers now, that door has been opened, so they need to walk through it.
“Someone who thinks that NOT going after Clemens or Bonds is going to suddenly solve all our economic/drug/border issues is totally delusional.”
You really have a hard time getting the other side’s point, don’t you? No one is suggesting this. You’re the only one who doesn’t seem to understand that resources are limited, even those of the federal government. So it is NOT an “either/or” argument, and it is not a rationalization that not going after these guys will solve all of our problems. What it is about is prioritizing. And for a lot of Americans, eradicating PEDs from sports just isn’t a priority.
Lastly, as for your stance on not giving cheaters jobs or electing them to the Hall of Fame, well, that’s your stance, and I respect that. However, I do think it is quite bold to stitch the Scarlet “S” on these players’ sleeves when none of them ever tested positive.
Keith â€“ yours is a very weak rationale because 1) the time and resources the government actually spends on PEDs in sports is quite small, and 2) it is not a negligible issue.
Is it a burning issue of our day? Of course not. Are there more critical issues? Of course there are. This idea that the government can only focus on a narrow band of issues is wholly incoherent.
Budgetary and domestic policy issues are for the most part vastly different types of issues than an oversight committeeâ€™s involvement into PEDs in sports. The reason we canâ€™t solve and will never solve funding and domestic policy issues is because of partisan polictcs and disagreements on budget allocation. If the oversight committee spent ZERO time this winter on Clemens, I doubt weâ€™d be any closer to ameliorating any other single problem in this country.
To show just how wrong your arguments are, you say that the report cost millions. But MLB paid for this report. Not Congress. In fact, ironically, it was probably the Yankees who paid for this report because of all the money they give to luxury taxes. You are just very misinformed on this point
The point is it shouldnâ€™t take a Congressional hearing, a Report that cost millions, and all the analysis that is going on.
What exactly are you referring to when you say â€˜itâ€?
You can not punish retroactively.
Are you not reading my posts? No one is advocating formal retroactive punishment. Iâ€™ve said this before, and it would save time if you didnâ€™t continually repeat arguments that no one is making.
So going through this whole song and a dance is pointless. So institute a more stringent testing policy with year long suspensions going forward and call it a day.
No, itâ€™s not pointless. I think you fail to realize that without involvement by the oversight committee starting a few years back, MLB would have virtually no testing policy in place right now. So unless you believe a testing program in baseball is useless, then congressional involvement has been absolutely essential.
There are people at my school who donâ€™t follow sports at all. I know a girl who couldnâ€™t tell Roger Clemens apart from Roger Rabbit.
And I know non-baseball fans who donâ€™t know much about Clemens but feel he cheated and lied and should pay the price.
Youâ€™re the only one who doesnâ€™t seem to understand that resources are limited, even those of the federal government.
Oh no, I understand that. I think the problem is your misunderstanding of the amount of resources they have spent up to now on PEDs in sports. It is peanuts. Again, if the oversight committee all of a sudden decided to stop paying attention to PEDs in sports, itâ€™s not going to all of a sudden free up money in the budget for domestic causes or rid the gridlock in government of partisan politics that is at the real root of domestic problems.
The small amount of resources they spent on looking into PEDs in sports is totally appropriate.
Thatâ€™s why the congress/resources excuse is the biggest red herring argument. With the DUI one being a close second.
As for positive tests, you donâ€™t need one to know someone did PEDs. And, at any rate, Bonds did fail one. It will come out at his trial.
Omar, with all due respect, I think it is you who has the severe myopia. It was only, a few members of one committee in Congress who spent all of about 6 weeks investigating Clemensâ€™ opposition to the Mitchell report, The Republicans didnâ€™t even read the depositions and supporting documents. Itâ€™s simply silly to think no other business got done in Congress because of this limited investigation by 1 committee.
This either/or red herring argument put up by those tolerant of the PEDs abusers is the biggest canard. Itâ€™s totally naÃ¯ve and disingenuous to make weak arguments like this, and it speaks of someone with no conception of reality.
And stop putting words into my mouth. I never said getting Clemens was one of the countryâ€™s high priorities. Again, another false argument on your part â€“ a strawman argument that undermines your position. It is frankly insulting for you to say that I donâ€™t care about this countryâ€™s social ills or more important issues.
But if you think locking up Clemens is going to end PEDs talk to the Olympics,
Locking up Clemens is not meant to eliminate PEDs totally from baseball. That will probably never happen. Locking up Clemens will act as a deterrent for anyone who wants to cheat in baseball or lie to the feds.
I want Roger Clemens in jail to help teach my kids, other peopleâ€™s kids, other baseball players, and adults around the country that lying and cheating donâ€™t pay. And I feel sorry for you for your failure to see this important lesson.
Again, this idea that there is only room in oneâ€™s moral vocabulary for one outrage â€¦ or only time on the Congressional schedule to address one type of issue â€¦ is the most illogical fraudulent excuse given by the Bonds-Clemens apologists.
Omar, with all due respect, I think it is you who has the severe myopia. It was only a few members of one committee in Congress who spent all of about 6 weeks investigating Clemens and his opposition to the Mitchell report. The Republicans didnâ€™t even read the depositions and supporting documents. Itâ€™s simply silly to think no other business got done in Congress because of this limited investigation by 1 committee.
Again, this idea that there is only room in oneâ€™s moral vocabulary for one outrage â€¦ or only time on the Congressional schedule to address just one type of issue â€¦ is the most illogical fraudulent excuse given by the Bonds-Clemens apologists.
First of all, I never said Congress paid for the bill. I didn’t think I had to spell that out. MLB didn’t need to spend millions to know they had a steroid problem. These owners have been turning the other cheek for years. This didn’t fall out of the sky. So, in my opinion, the MR was a waste of time and money.
The first Congressional hearings were fine. You’re right, they did not take up much time and they actually gave MLB a kick in the butt. But why go back to the well? Did you watch Clemens’ appearance? It was a waste of time and resources, regardless of how minute that may have been.
You obviously feel very strongly about this, so I’m not responding after this. But in my opinion, PED use in baseball is not worth all of this trouble.
That does NOT make me an apologist because I do think PED users should be punished, rather firmly at that. I just don’t feel it is necessary to anguish over events that are over and done with.
The steroid era happened. It’s now been exposed. Institute a stronger policy against it, and let’s move on. We do not need to have a line of players outside the Capitol.
The Bonds and Clemens situations are different, however. Bonds allegedly lied to a grand jury for an investigation into BALCO. Clemens allegedly lied while under oath in Congress. These are both big no-nos. Whether or not I felt Mr. Clemens visits Washington was worthwhile or not, the fact that he allegedly lied means he needs to face the music. Bonds and Clemens being investigated/prosecuted for perjury is different from their use of PEDs.
“Thatâ€™s why the congress/resources excuse is the biggest red herring argument. With the DUI one being a close second.”
Lastly, you’re misinterpreting our position. We’re not apologizing for these guys. We’re not saying they shouldn’t be punished. We’re just saying that too much ink and blood is being spilled over this issue. From my, and many others’, perspectives, if Congress spends one second on this issue that could have been spent on a more worthy cause, well, that’s one second too long. So while the time and resources they devote to it may be “peanuts,” if those “peanuts” are being devoted to PED in pro sports instead of another more worthy cause (whatever that may be), well that’s too much IMO. Congress did a fine job the first time around, but enough is enough now.
The DUI “argument/excuse” is neither an argument nor an excuse. It is simply stating that the media has spent an inordinate amount of time anguishing over the “Steroid Era.” Meanwhile, players like Leonard Little kill people while DUI and are lucky if they get a headline. Or, a better example, Shawne Merriman gets busted for steroids in football, only to garner support in the media to be named Defensive Player of the year. Basically, I’m sick of hearing about the steroid era in baseball when the media really could give a crap about steroids, as evidenced by their ignoring it in other sports, namely, the NFL (Merriman, Rodney Harrison, Julius Peppers, etc.)
Keith, you mentioned the reports’ cost in the context of oomplaining about how the government spends its money. So it was only logical that you were saying that cost was coming out of the government. And that is the only conclusion a reader could take from that passage.
So now you’re complaining how MLB spends its money?
And at exactly what point are you saying the Congressional hearings became a waste of time? Can you be precise so we don’t have a moving target here?
And yes, I watched Clemens lying to congress on national TV. Maybe if you think that particular hearing was a waste of money, you should vent against Clemens and his idiot defense lawyer, Hardin. Waxman wanted to cancel that portion of the hearings but Clemens and Hardin insisted on it. Since Clemens was the one whose reputation was most at stake, Waxman agreed to go ahead.
Personally, I don’t think the Clemens testimony was a waste of time. It was a good object lesson about lying to congress and unbridled arrogance and where that will get you.
The steroid era happened. Itâ€™s now been exposed. Institute a stronger policy against it, and letâ€™s move on.
See, this is where I think you’re terribly naive. Even now, a sronger policy won’t come about without continued Congressional scrutiny and pressure. There are big holes in the current testing program as is.
Weâ€™re not saying they shouldnâ€™t be punished.
Oh, you’re not? Then how come you said the Mets should sign Bonds? We both agree formal retroactive punishment is not the answer. The issue was one of whether or not you give the egregious cheaters jobs, contracts and honors like HOF membership. That is the punishment I’ve been talking about and advocating. Do you want it both ways? I would be curious to know what you feel is acceptable punishment.
It is simply stating that the media has spent an inordinate amount of time anguishing over the â€œSteroid Era.â€
So now it’s the media’s fault? LOL, Keith, your excuses seem to change with every post. First you ranted against fans who seemed to care more about PEDs than DUI offenders. Now you say fans don’t really care about PEDs, but it’s the media who is too obsessed with steroids and HGH? Your position indeed has been a moving target.
Maybe the reason the media spends more time on PEDs in baseball than in other sports is because 1) the popularity of baseball relative to other sports and 2) the idea that records are more sacred in baseball than any other sport. I’m not really sure why, and that’s a question someone like John Delcos could better handle. But since baseball is my #1 sport, I’m certainly glad they’ve been giving it the coverage they have been. Actually, I wish they would have done more investigative reporting on PEDs in baseball earlier.
If you ask me, the more scrutiny the media gives PEDs in baseball, the cleaner the sport is likely to be. Because the pressure to clean up the sport also comes from the public embarrassment players and management like Fehr and Selig get from being called out in reports like the Mitchell Report and by Congress.
I noticed in another comment section you say you played a lot of sports. Have you tried steroids or HGH? Is that why you hold a lenient position?
“Have you tried steroids or HGH? Is that why you hold a lenient position?”
First of all this is totally inappropriate. I played sports in HS, and I was raised the right way. I wouldn’t take steroids or HGH.
“So now youâ€™re complaining how MLB spends its money?”
Not complaining. Just stating my opinion that it was a waste of time and money.
“And at exactly what point are you saying the Congressional hearings became a waste of time? ”
The first congressional hearings that included McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc., were understandable. It got the ball rolling and I didn’t have a problem with it. I didn’t see the point of the Clemens hearing.
“Personally, I donâ€™t think the Clemens testimony was a waste of time. It was a good object lesson about lying to congress and unbridled arrogance and where that will get you.”
Uh, yeah, I would prefer that our government officials spend their time more productively than “teaching Roger Clemens a lesson.”
“Even now, a sronger policy wonâ€™t come about without continued Congressional scrutiny and pressure.”
Is this a fact? I would say this is opinion. Rome wasn’t built in a day. MLB has made great strides in this area. How about players’ rights? These issues take time in collective bargaining. Congress got the ball rolling, and baseball is going through the negotiating process.
“The issue was one of whether or not you give the egregious cheaters jobs, contracts and honors like HOF membership. That is the punishment Iâ€™ve been talking about and advocating.”
Again, did these guys fail any tests? Do they not deserve a second chance if they did in fact test positive? How come Steve Howe was given 9 chances, but Bonds and Clemens should be excommunicated because they took steroids? Should they not have an opportunity to come back and prove their clean, similar to how Josh Hamilton came back from drug abuse? These guys should just be thrown out of MLB for one failed test? I’m sorry, but I just feel that’s incredibly heavy handed.
I am not lenient on steroids. I believe if you test positive it should be a half year ban. 2nd time gets you a year. 3rd time your out. I feel that this would be a strong enough policy. And I also feel the testing should be completely random. The players should not know when they will be tested.
“LOL, Keith, your excuses seem to change with every post.”
Get is straight. These are not excuses, arguments, or complaints. I am simply stating my personal opinion regarding the steroid issue. I feel that when it comes to the steroid issue, everyone likes to act holier than thou, however when it comes to issues like drug addiction or DUI people kind of get silent. Why is that? Probably because most people know someone who has a drug addiction or is an alcoholic. Most people have probably drank and drove before. However, and this is merely conjecture, I would guess most people have never dabbled in steroids or HGH. So people (and the media is part of the general “people”) tend to forgive other transgressions that they can relate to or have in fact done themselves.
And should I just keep repeating myself over and over again? There are a multitude of reasons as to why I have formed the opinion I have formed.
“Maybe the reason the media spends more time on PEDs in baseball than in other sports is because 1) the popularity of baseball relative to other sports”
Try again. Football is more popular than baseball and hardly any coverage was given to Merriman and Harrison. It was discussed for a day, maybe two, but that was it. Some even advocated for Merriman to win defensive player of the year.
“Actually, I wish they would have done more investigative reporting on PEDs in baseball earlier.”
But they didn’t, and why is that? Because no one kills their moneymaker. You mean to tell me these guys who spend so much time around the game didn’t hear whispers? I call shenanigans. And this is my larger point. You want to “punish” steroid users (who never tested positive, mind you), yet what happens to the owners and the beat writers who never spoke up or said anything, who allowed the problem to persist? Obviously the players should bear most of the responsibility here, but the owners, and to a lesser extent, the beat writers, also deserve to be held culpable as well.
I didnâ€™t see the point of the Clemens hearing.
Again, Waxman tried to cancel that. Clemens & Hardin wanted it to go ahead. Maybe you should rant about them.
I would prefer that our government officials spend their time more productively than â€œteaching Roger Clemens a lesson.â€
As I’ve been saying, it was a lesson for those in the audience—kids, other athletes, adults— as much as anything.
Is this a fact?
It’s a prediction based on fact—precedent. Up to now, Fehr and Selig only moved to stricter policies after congressional pressure. MLB has made great strides but only after being prodded by Congress. That IS a fact.
Players’ rights? They have always had every right to walk away from the millions they get if they don’t like the rules of MLB. No one is forcing them to play for millions.
The CBA has always been a roadblock to reform when it came to PEDs. That’s exactly why Congress was/is needed. Because the union was willing to make changes outside of the CBA only when pressured by Congress.
Again, did these guys fail any tests?
Again, a failed test is not the only way to know someone took PEDs.
How come Steve Howe was given 9 chances, but Bonds and Clemens should be excommunicated because they took steroids?
Because cocaine is not considered a PED in the way steroids and HGH are. Because cocaine does not distort the playing field the way PEDs do. One is a blatant attempt to cheat, the other is not. One impacts the integrity of the game, the other does not. And why must you always make a judgement about PEDs in relation to other infractions? That’s the red herring argument.
People don’t “go silent” on DUIs or cocaine. It’s just that within the game of baseball cheating is considered more of a crime. DUIs and cocaine are considered personal tragedies/frailties/problems.
Try again. Football is more popular than baseball
Every year, don’t more people attend baseball games than attend football games? Collectively, I think their out-of-pocket costs are higher than that for those who attend football games.
At any rate, I am not much of a football fan. I care about baseball. Again, why you must frame your own judgment on steroids around how football fans react is beyond me and terribly week.
But they didnâ€™t, and why is that? Because no one kills their moneymaker.
Why? Because fewer players were talking then. Because the media was simply behind the curve on the story. I doubt the media cared about killing baseball’s “moneymaker” which ended up to not really be the biggest moneymaker at all. Baseball is making more money than ever now, yet we’re many years past the hyper inflated power stats.
And you can’t write stories based on whispers. Unless you want to fight a lot of lawsuits. Big time.
“At any rate, I am not much of a football fan. I care about baseball. Again, why you must frame your own judgment on steroids around how football fans react is beyond me and terribly week.”
If we are trying to teach the kids that cheating is bad, shouldn’t people (fans, Congress and the media) be making just as big a deal about steroid use in football as they are about steroid use in baseball? And, if they aren’t, why is that?
“I doubt the media cared about killing baseballâ€™s â€œmoneymakerâ€ which ended up to not really be the biggest moneymaker at all.”
Not baseball’s moneymaker… their own. If reporters spearheaded the uncovering of the steroid issue players would stop talking to them. If players don’t talk to them, they don’t have jobs.
“Baseball is making more money than ever now, yet weâ€™re many years past the hyper inflated power stats.”
When the Mets were playing awesome in ‘06 their attendance rose, but it rose even more in ‘07, despite the team not playing as well because there was now a winning perception of the team. That’s why the ARod argument that attendance rose while he was there is bull. Rising attendance is generally tied to past performance and not current performance. So baseball is reaping the benefits from the excitement generated by the steroid season to this day. Plus, it helped to smooth over ill feelings from the strike.
“Every year, donâ€™t more people attend baseball games than attend football games?”
I’m going to have to go ahead and guess it has to do with baseball being a 162 game season with football only being 16 games.
“Itâ€™s just that within the game of baseball cheating is considered more of a crime. DUIs and cocaine are considered personal tragedies/frailties/problems.”
That’s a fair argument. However, I just disagree with you. You haven’t stated how you would punish those who use PEDs so I don’t know what your exact policy would be, however it sounds like it would be pretty harsh. I believe ballplayers should be given a second chance. By bringing up the DUI and drug situations I am pointing to other instances where players have used behaved contrary to MLB policy and have been welcomed back after they were punished. Why shouldn’t PED users have an opportunity at redemption after serving their punishment?
“Again, a failed test is not the only way to know someone took PEDs.”
Right, but good luck setting a “he said, she said” testing policy. There is no way you can ever punish someone for using PED unless they fail a test or there is some big time evidence against them.
“Playersâ€™ rights? They have always had every right to walk away from the millions they get if they donâ€™t like the rules of MLB.”
This is a bogus argument from your end. Of course the players have rights. How would you like it if your job all of a sudden changed rules they’ve had in place for years? Of course they have rights, just like anyone else.
“No one is forcing them to play for millions.”
This can’t be a serious comment. Ballplayers have unique skills that owners are willing to pay a lot of cash for. They are part of a union that protects their interests. Just like how any other union protects the interests of its members.
“As Iâ€™ve been saying, it was a lesson for those in the audienceâ€”kids, other athletes, adultsâ€” as much as anything.”
Again, let’s leave “teaching lessons” to parents and after school specials. I would rather have Congress focus their time on legislating.
“Again, Waxman tried to cancel that. Clemens & Hardin wanted it to go ahead.”
Right, because Roger Clemens and his lawyer just burst into the Capitol and said “WE ARE HAVING THIS HEARING, I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU WANT!!!” And Congress responded with a meek “ok.” They’re freaking Congress, they set their own agenda, not Roger Clemens and his lawyer.
“And you canâ€™t write stories based on whispers. Unless you want to fight a lot of lawsuits.”
Sure you can, because of the precedent set in New York Times v. Sullivan: “The actual malice standard requires that the plaintiff in a defamation or libel case prove that the publisher of the statement in question knew that the statement was false or acted in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity. Because of the extremely high burden of proof on the plaintiff, and the difficulty in proving essentially what is inside a person’s head, such cases â€” when they involve public figures â€” rarely prevail.”
This is why you don’t see celebrities suing US Weekly left and right.
If reporters spearheaded the uncovering of the steroid issue players would stop talking to them.
Media outlets donâ€™t assign beat reporters to investigate things like steroids usage and distribution. And, indeed, over the last decade or so, the reporters who have been most active in investigating steroids in baseball have not been beat reporters. So that is not a valid issue.
Rising attendance is generally tied to past performance and not current performance. So baseball is reaping the benefits from the excitement generated by the steroid season to this day.
Nonsense. Thatâ€™s simply ludicrous. Bumps in attendance do follow successful seasons but MLB hasnâ€™t had a steroids-induced HR-derby year since at least 2004. Most people agree that the recent rise in revenues and attendance has more to do with the wildcard and a more even playing field due to revenue sharing and luxury taxes than anything else. If you look at recent articles about the profits, they all say that. I donâ€™t think youâ€™ll find a single person who thinks it has to do with a HR bump dating back more than 4-5 years ago.
Iâ€™m going to have to go ahead and guess it has to do with baseball being a 162 game season with football only being 16 games.
Obviously. My point being people shell out much more collectively in out-of-pocket expenses every year for baseball than they do for football.
You havenâ€™t stated how you would punish those who use PEDs so I donâ€™t know what your exact policy would be, however it sounds like it would be pretty harsh.
There are two issues here â€“ formal penalties imposed upon those testing positive and informal punishment imposed by fans, teams and writes in the form of withholding jobs, contracts, and special honors.
In terms of formal penalties, I would have a minimum 90 day suspension for the first offense. Second offense youâ€™re out of baseball for life.
For the most serious cheaters â€“ like Bonds and Clemens â€“ I donâ€™t think they deserve baseball jobs, contracts or any HOF honors.
There is no way you can ever punish someone for using PED unless they fail a test or there is some big time evidence against them.
Incorrect. In terms of formal penalties, Selig has already punished players for violating the steroids policy without them having failed a drug test. Itâ€™s infrequent but heâ€™s done it.
In terms of how fans, teams, and writers react, they certainly donâ€™t need any positive test to withhold jobs and honors. Youâ€™ll never see McGwuire or Palmeiro in the HOF even though neither has failed a drug test. I doubt Clemens will make it either, even though he may not have ever failed a drug test. I also predict no one will give Bonds a job this year. While he has failed a drug test, Iâ€™m not sure many are aware of that yet. So, you see, they can be punished in many ways even though theyâ€™ve never failed a test.
How would you like it if your job all of a sudden changed rules theyâ€™ve had in place for years?
Apples and oranges. As I mentioned to you many posts ago, MLB did have rules against using steroids when Bonds and Clemens cheated.
They are part of a union that protects their interests.
Right. But baseball is allowed to operate in the way it does due to the anti-trust exemption from Congress. Therefore, Congress has the right to impose rules that supercede the rights of the baseball players. If they donâ€™t like it, they can walk away.
Again, letâ€™s leave â€œteaching lessonsâ€ to parents and after school specials. I would rather have Congress focus their time on legislating.
As I said, itâ€™s not just for the kids, itâ€™s for adults and the other players as well. A deterrent to both cheating and lying. I would rather have Congress make a point with the Mitchell report than not. We will just have to agree to disagree here.
Theyâ€™re freaking Congress, they set their own agenda, not Roger Clemens and his lawyer.
Of course, Congress could have said no to Clemens. But it was Congress who initiated these hearings and if Clemens and his lawyers insist on going through with them because they felt that was only fair, then in the interest of justice, I can see where Waxman and David acceded to their wishes
**Sure you can, because of the precedent set in New York Times v. Sullivan: â€¦â€
My original statement still stands. As I said, you canâ€™t write stories based on whispers unless you want to fight a lot of laswsuits. Regardless of their chances of winning, a media outlet does not want to embroil itself in needless lawsuits, tying up and wasting resources. Which is why the reputable ones that have beat reporters covering baseball teams wonâ€™t print stories based on whispers. Apart from the legal issues, itâ€™s also called journalistic integrity. These are professionals after all, not National Enquirer hacks.
That is why you donâ€™t see any stories based on just â€œwhispers.â€
CP â€“ Of course they should care as much. My point is, I donâ€™t follow football enough so I canâ€™t speak about it. I donâ€™t know the history of their testing policy, I donâ€™t know their current testing policy, I donâ€™t know anything about those football players or the circumstances surrounding their alleged cheating, and I don’t know anything about the fans’ reaction to them. So I am not going to comment about that which I know nothing about.
Regardless, my point remains—steroids usage in baseball should be judged on its own without reference to what other sports do and without regard to how other infractions in baseball are dealt with. Why is it so hard for some of you to make such a judgment?
Ok, look, let’s just agree to stop here. We could literally continue this forever, with each of us cutting and pasting the other’s post and responding. However, I will respond to this:
“Steroids usage in baseball should be judged on its own without reference to what other sports do and without regard to how other infractions in baseball are dealt with. Why is it so hard for some of you to make such a judgment?”
Why are you so adamant about judging steroids in a vacuum? Generally, when deciding how to deal/punish an offense and set policy you look to other forums and how it is handled there, and how other offenses within your own jurisdiction are handled. Thus, the MLB drug policy and steroid policies of other leagues are relevant to the discussion.
Granted, steroids is more damaging to the game of baseball than doing smack or a DUI, but the punishment should be proportional to the crime.
Ok, one more thing I wanted to address.
“Incorrect. In terms of formal penalties, Selig has already punished players for violating the steroids policy without them having failed a drug test. Itâ€™s infrequent but heâ€™s done it.”
Just because Selig did this it doesn’t make it right. MLB cannot and should not punish players for using PED unless they test positive for it, or unless there is extensive evidence implicating their use.
What you don’t seem to understand is that punishing/exposing someone as using PED is extremely damaging to a player’s career/life and should be treated as such. You need to be almost certain that the player used PEDs before you expose him because we’re talking about someone’s livelihood here. It doesn’t matter that they’re millionaires playing a game, they still deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt and not have to defend themselves in “the court of public opinion” which is subject to the whims of the common man.
That is why I have a problem with the way this whole steroid debacle went down. Just because it was accurate doesn’t make it right. It sets a dangerous precedent. Personally, I feel like if even one player was wrongly implicated then that would been one too many.
I am not saying judge it in a vacuum. I am saying don’t judge it based on how others react to other infractions. That makes no sense.
When a governing body decides on formal punishment,other formal standards may or may not be used as a benchmark. But they certainly don’t base it on their perception of public reaction to other infractions. You’re basing your own personal judgment on how other fans react to other infractions both in and outside of baseball. That makes no sense.
“Can not” and “should not” are two different things. If you say should not, then that is of course your opinion. But you essentially said “cannot” in your previous post, and you are clearly wrong. Because they can. Whether they should or not is open to debate.
I totally understand that.
Mitchell was certain. And based on what was in the Mitchell report I am certain.
The feds are certain about Bonds. And based on what I’ve read about his usage, I am certain too.
What debacle? I think the Mitchell Report was quite a success.
The only aspect that was a debacle was the reaction of Clemens and his tone deaf lawyer.
That was my post above.
“Youâ€™re basing your own personal judgment on how other fans react to other infractions both in and outside of baseball. That makes no sense.”
No, I’m not. I’ve stated my personal feelings regarding steroids. What I find mindboggling is how heavy handed most people are regarding steroids. When I point to other infractions its to establish a sort of societal baseline for how professional athletes are treated who engage in illicit behavior. IMO, your not wanting to ever sign a PED user to another contract is a bit heavy handed when society seems to be so forgiving in many other respects. What is it about PEDs that makes everyone go ballistic about them?
Keith You waged a valiant battle with a very cosed minded and sad person who is geting his kicks out of seeing rich folk go down. As soon as someone says comparing baseball to his job is comparing apples to oranges you know you are dealing with the worst type of hypocrite who won’t take the same test he demands others take. In fact, we don’t know his job but it may be more important that he be clean than a baseball player. But he don’t have to be clean!!! But the JK guy is the sun and the moon and the stars… oh wait, that was Peter Pan….
This is what doesn’t makes sense – how can anyone profess to know how the majority of baseball fans feel about DUI offenders or any other type of infraction in the absence of a poll? Bottom line: you’re just speculating here. Which makes any judgments based on that speculation weak.
I suggest you go back and read my posts. I never advocated a total ban on all abusers. I specifically mentioned the most “egregious” offenders like Bonds and Clemens. If I were a GM/team owner, I wouldn’t give either of these 2 jobs in baseball ever.
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