Because Church played LF. You don’t usually attempt to go 1st to 3rd on a LF. Church is an upgrade over Green, our regular RF for most of the season. I don’t include Milledge in the calculus because the person Church is replacing is Green.

All of those trade examples I gave were not meant to be an equal comparison. They were meant to show that some players develop at a later stage than others. Guys like Nady, Paul O’Neill, Kent, Bay, Ortiz, etc., all blossomed a tad later than most. Even guys like Utley and Howard didn’t make it to the bigs until they were past 25.

The Schneider rebuttal is certainly valid. You can’t say “well, the Nats ERA was lower when Flores was behind the plate” when Schneider played significantly more innings than he did. As for his declining numbers re: throwing runners out: he’s still far superior in this area and overall defensively than our last two catchers.

And Church has played RF in his career, just not last year because Bowden traded for his boy Kearns. Church is a good defender and a good athlete. He will definitely be an improvement in RF over Green.

“They are barely average guys who have played with no pressure on a lousy DC club, they have to prove they can handle the NY press and Shea boo birds, they have to prove they can play when it matters, so why get excited about them. If we are chasing average, I say go young. If you are chasing stars give away the young. That’s why nobody knocks the Santana trade, because it was right, and this trade wasn’t.”

Schneider may be barley average (if that), however Church is definitely above average. He would have led the Mets in doubles last year and ranked 13th among NL OF in OPS. Further, do not knock “league average players.” They are more valuable than many of you think.

Of course they have to prove they can play here. My point is that no one is giving them the opportunity. In some way, I feel like many Met “fans” would like to see them fail and Milledge thrive just to be able to say “I told you so.”

Lastly, how can you say assign a value judgment of right or wrong on a trade as if it is a universally accepted truth? While 90% of Mets fans would say the Johan trade was the “right” move, I bet the other %10 could make a compelling argument as to why it was not the “right” move.

Anyway, this is how I view the Mets offseason moves.

Johan > Glavine
Church > Green
Schneider/Castro > LoDuca

Will we eventually rue the day we dealt Milledge in division? It’s possible. But I certainly won’t be sweating it if we have a productive OF of Fmart – Beltran – Church for the next 5 years.

As for bad moves like Ortiz, it doesn’t prove Church will excel. Ortiz hit 20 HRs and the Twins released him. (Why, money?? beats me). If the Mets got 15 HR Church for nothing I’d be very happy with the move. But they didn’t.

Anyway if these guys are good they will make us all forget the complaints. We’ll see. Just like Oliie did.

“keith and all the other church/schneider lovers: how come your stats are perfect and anyone who doesn’t think they are great because of the stats they see are dissers, or bad met fans:”

Again, I have made it abundantly clear that I do not foresee MVP awards and yearly all star appearances for Church. I just think he’s going to be a solid everyday RF. I also never said anyone was a bad Mets fan, but I just don’t understand the nasty, negative tone whenever people discuss Schneider and specifically, Church. You don’t have to love him or buy his jersey, but people calling him a scrub or an offensive black hole are A) not giving him a fair chance and B) completely ignoring his stats.

“stats like church never getting 500 ABs on lousy teams, facts like he didn’t even play right field last year,”

I’m not convinced. The Blue Jays, Mets, and Indians all let Jeff Kent go. The Twins cut David Ortiz. The Mets traded away Jason Bay. The Padres gave up on Xavier Nady. My point is that much better run teams than the Nationals have mishandled good players. IMO, the fact that Church never had 500 ABs (and really, come on, he had 470 last season) is not dispositive of anything. BTW, that’s not really a “stat”. 470 ABs is a nice sample size (Shawn Green had 446 ABs last season) and Church had a nice stat line last year.

“fact like the pitchers having an ERA almost a run a game higher for the Nats when Schneider was catching vice Flores.”

This one’s easy. Small sample size. Schneider started way more games than Flores, so the true terrible nature of the Nats pitchers was able to show itself.

“All the stats that say they aren’t good. They are just as real as church’s doubles total that is ballyhooed.”

Yup, all those crucial stats like number of ABs, Church not getting a fair shake on a terribly run organization (ps: not even a stat), and comparing staff era Schneider v. Flores. Look at Church’s stat line from last season. He’s good! He had more doubles than DWright. His OPS ranked 13th among all NL OF last season. Again, he may not be an all star, but he’s a good player.

“And why is he a great right fielder when he doesn’t play it, he only had a few assists last year and only a few steals indicating he has no speed and no arm strength.”

I never called him a great RF, Minaya did. From what I’ve heard, he’s a good athlete, so I put 2+2 together and figured he would be better than Green, who was a statue in RF last year. And low assist totals do not = no arm strength. How many assists does Vlad Guerrero rack up? I would tell you not a lot, because no one runs on guys with good arms. So he may or may not have a good arm, but having a low OF assist total doesn’t prove anything. Same with him having low SB #’s. Acta is on record as saying he doesn’t run a whole lot. On a team like the Mets, where Shawn Green stole his fair share of bases, I’m sure Church will run more. In fact, Minaya mentioned this in an interview.

“But we have to salute his doubles and salute Schneiders phanton defense? You guys all said Milledge didn’t prove anything, well neither did these 2 guys.”

You don’t have to salute anything. My whole point is that those who keep whining about this trade don’t want to give these guys a shot. Schneider I can understand the gripes, but even in his case… he’s going to be virtually splitting time with Castro. So I am expecting solid production from the C as a whole. As for Church, while there are some red flags (his age, only one full season), but he had a nice season last year and from the few times I saw him, he looked like a solid ballplayer.

Look, I liked Milledge as much as a lot of you guys do. To a man, I would have liked to seen the Mets give him a shot (especially since FMart was the other guy we were keeping and he’s LH himself, Milledge and him would have been a nice tag team). However, I am not going to rip apart Church and Schneider because I’m annoyed the Mets dealt Milledge. Lastly, be honest, Church has proven more than Milledge. He just has. Doesn’t mean Church ends up better than him over the next 6-8 years, but he has shown he can play in the bigs.

“We don’t want them to fail.. We just don’t assinine fantasies about them being perennial all stars”

Who is trying to say either of these players are going to be perpetual all stars? I don’t recall anyone doing so. What I do recall is myself explicitly saying he is going to be a solid RF and 7 hitter. If anything is asinine it’s everyone constantly ragging on him and making him out to be no better than Ricky Ledee.

“when they have gone thru the prime of their athletic lives being average at best.”

Being league average is way more valuable than you and many others realize.

“did Shea fans boo Wright? Of course they did last April.”

This is a completely irrelevant to anything.

“And they were not brought in as role players. Being the everyday Right Fielder is not a role its a key offensive position. Being the number 1 catcher is a key position. Easley and Anderson and Wiuse are roile players.”

This could simply be a matter of semantics, but those guys are bench players. Church, Schneider, and Castillo are role players. Our core guys are Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Delgado, and Alou (when healthy). The other starters are expected to play good defense and contribute at the plate. The same way Scott Brosius was a role player. The same way Dustin Pedroia and Jacob Ellsbury are role players. Teams are built around their big players and you complement them with players who have a variety of skills. To me, you’re a role player if losing you doesn’t cripple a team, or at least make the fan base a bit nervous at the prospect of fielding a team without you. Losing Wright, Reyes, or Beltran would be a disaster. Delgado and Alou, not so much, but it’s fairly well settled that we need those guys. The others: replaceable. This does not mean they are not valuable though, because most likely you are replacing the “average” Church with a replacement level player.

“There wasn’t dissing. There was extreme unhappiness with a trade. Is that not allowable, and there was lying from the Met FO about personality when they rid themselves of one player whose actions they don’t like and replace him with a religios bigot.”

First, try not to trip over your jump to conclusions mat. Why is it completely out of the realm of possibility that Minaya just wasn’t high on Milledge as a ballplayer? Is this so difficult to even TRY to wrap your head around? Bill Smith wanted nothing to do with Milledge. He could have had him, a more established MLB ready player, for Johan, and he said he wasn’t a deal breaker. So for all of you who totally overvalue Milledge and moan about how we almost got Oswalt/Manny for him (ps: we were NEVER getting either for just Milledge), let’s remember that fact. Minnesota could have had Milledge in a PACKAGE of prospects for Johan and passed.

Now, a disclaimer. I personally like Lastings. I was also somewhat underwhelmed by the trade. However, I do not think we should take it out on Church/Schneider. Nor do I think we should put any credence into the Nats assessment of Church either.

I was talking more about O’Neill’s grit not the numbers.

Please explain to me how 2 years ago is a long time ago.

I give you Delgado’s stats from 2 years ago.
144 games 38 hr 114 rbi 265 avg

In the postseason he had
10 games 4 hr 11 rbi 351 avg

obviously he is a terrible player who a long time ago put up good numbers.

As for Mike C. the fact that you claim never to have made a bigoted remark is an indictment of yourself. We don’t like it, we shouldn’t condone it, but I don’t think any of us have never made one. And the other guy was right about your comment and I took it as a direct insult upon me and my community.

That is a very tall order. I just hope he does what he did last yr, 40D, 15HR, 75RBI. That would be good enough from the 7 hole.

stats like church never getting 500 ABs on lousy teams, facts like he didn’t even play right field last year, fact like the pitchers having an ERA almost a run a game higher for the Nats when Schneider was catching vice Flores. All the stats that say they aren’t good. They are just as real as church’s doubles total that is ballyhooed. And why is he a great right fielder when he doesn’t play it, he only had a few assists last year and only a few steals indicating he has no speed and no arm strength. But we have to salute his doubles and salute Schneiders phanton defense? You guys all said Milledge didn’t prove anything, well neither did these 2 guys.

See, I just don’t get this attitude. It’s like you all want those two to fail.

Why was there dissing to begin with? They were brought in here as role players. They’re better than the guys they’re replacing. And the Twins wanted nothing to do with the guy who was traded for him.