Pass on Johan
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- January
- 28
Spoke with Omar Minaya and he still wants pitching. He also said he recognizes the Mets’ potential holes after this season with the potential departures of Pedro Martinez, Orlando Hernandez, Moises Alou and Carlos Delgado.
Those are holes that will need to be filled, and the prospects supposedly going to Minnesota for Johan Santana could do it either on the field or in a trade.
Never mind the $130-plus million it would take to sign him, but even with Santana, you’ll still have those holes, and a lot less flexibility to fill them.
You’re hearing how the Mets are frontrunners, but that’s because the Yankees and Boston are holding the line. The Twins want the Mets in this so they can get the Red Sox and Yankees bidding again. The Twins are playing the Mets for chumps.
This entry was posted
on Monday, January 28th, 2008 at 9:27 am by John Delcos.
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I gotta believe they are still in it. Otherwise they would have signed at least one of these other guys: Fredy Garcia, Livan Hernandez, Kyle Lohse, etc.
Unrelated question…who are the 13 fools who don't think Roger Clemens did steroids & hgh?
The only chumps are the Mets b/c I see no indication that they have the ability to develop ML talent. Hence, any talk that these "prospects" are any good and can fill the shoes of Pedro, El Duque, Alou, and Delgado is ridiculus. We just saw how waiting (Milledge) ends up getting you a couple of so-so players.
You, JD, have stated repeatedly that the propsects are not any good. How can you now state they can replace the above players either themselves or in trades?
If the other parties don't want to step up for Santana, make the trade while they still have some value.
And I don't want to hear that the Mets don't have $$. They've got plenty. There was a story the other day stating that even w/their 200+MM payroll the Yanks still make more than 200+MM.
The Mets can't be too far behind w/a nearly filled Shea, 70MM from ML BB (for shared revenue, MLB.com, etc.), naming rights (20MM) and SNY.
Plus, if Pedro, ElDuqe, Alou and Delgado are gone next yr, that is about 40MM off the books.
They will still have plenty of room, even if they want to stay at 100MM. Which is a ridiculus figure when you think about the money pouring in.
I would make the trade for Santana but I can't help but remember 20 years ago trading a bunch of prospects for Frank Viola looked like a slam dunk. Not the worse trade the Mets made but probably a net loss.
John has a good point. Take these stories with a large grain of salt. The Twins may prefer to send Santana to the NL but they want get the Yankees and Red Sox bidding. If they don't trade him to the Mets in 10 days, no one is going to get sued for false headlines.
Last winter Zito/Boras used Minaya as a chump. Minaya lost opportunities to get decent 4-5 guys and we got ChanHo and Lawrence and ultimately it cost us the NL EAST. Now you say he is being used as a chump again. The only difference is that the FAs out there are a lot worse than last winter, our kids have another year of development (in theory at least) and he'll sign the crap and we'll finish out of the hunt again. And don't believe any Met official who says they are going to use the kids someday. They need to prove it. Or he'll trade them, devalue them first and fill the team with more average at best talent like he did a couple months ago. Wow, Wright/Reyes/Beltran and 5 mediocrities… 75 wins and a filled up citi field for 2 years. I can hardly wait…...
When the results come in JD, we'll know if you are wrong or right. But im sure being the Yankee fan you are and having had the chance to enjoy the success over the last 40 years or so, you can easily say that the Mets should "pass" on Johan. Well take it from a true blue Met fan here…we want to win a World Series in our lifetimes. So let us be. I'll gladly NOT pass on Johan. I want him. The Mets need him. The Mets need an ACE. There is no one out there in the system or on the team currently that is one.
John- Help me out with something… Why would the Twins trade Santana to BOS or NYY? Both are in the AL and both are parental playoff teams. I would assume the Twins want to win too so why would you trade the best pitchers in MLB to one of the teams that will stand in the way of you going to a World Series? That doesn't make much sense to me.
IMHO this will end in one of two ways, 1)Johan Santana will be a NY Met in 2008 or 2)The Twins will roll the dice and go for it one more time in 2008 with Santana. In the latter Santana will walk but at least the Twins can control who they draft and their track record is way better then the Mets in that department.
Pedro; why do the Twins care if they trade him to NYY or Bos?? Because, if you are doing a dumop then you do not have an interest in winning now so you get the best you can get, and worry about it in 5 years if you are back in the hunt by then.
Steve (the original) why does Delcos have to be a NYY fan to say don't get santana. a guy from northern ohio doesn't have to be a nyy fan because he covered them. i want santana like you do but i think delcos has nailed it when he talks about omar being used, since he seems to be making a habit of it….. it doesn't take a nyy fan to see that. he was used by zito and he was even used by beltran/boras if you remember at the last minute they offered beltran to the nyy for less.
Sloppy: Again, when it's all said and done with we'll know if Delcos was wrong or right. If the Yankees come in and take Santana then the Mets were being used. The Yankee stuff is tongue in cheek mainly, but I bet if you ask JD who his allegiences are with he would privately say the Yankees. :-)
So, you sign Santana and with the $40-50 million coming off the books you sign free agents to fill the holes in LF and at 1st. Doesn't Santana fill a SP hole longterm anyway? I don't feel any of these prospects is so worth holding onto that you pass on the best pitcher in baseball. Say Texeira, Sexson or Broussard at 1B and Burrell, Crawford, Dunn or Willy Mo in LF. You don't even go over the luxury tax limit and your talent level increases tremendously. Hell either Petey or Delgado may sign for another year if they have a good '08. Is anybody so confident in Mulvey/Humber/Gomez/F-Mart that they can't be traded for Santana and replaced by free agents as contracts expire?
MisterMet, "Is anybody so confident in Mulvey/Humber/Gomez/F-Mart that they can’t be traded for Santana and replaced by free agents as contracts expire?"
The Mets have had 1 HOF, 2 CY winners, no MVPs in 45 yrs. Not to mention very few homegrown All stars or ROY.
They have no history of developing top talent. You can name them on one hand-Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, Gooden, Strawberry, Wright, Reyes. Ok, a 7 finger hand.
Trade those guys for Santana. The chances of any of them being a HOF, CY winner, or an MVPer is slim to none. the chances of any of them being an All star, given this teams player selection/development, are only slightly better than slim.
And even w/20MM+ for Santana, Mets payroll this yr is about 125MM. Next yr it will be 85MM w/o Pedro, El duqe, Delgado and Alou.
Pedro, look at the twins last 13 first round picks or supplemental picks (excluding 2007). 2 are in the majors while 7 are out of baseball. The mets track record is far superior to that (Heilman, Kazmir, Milledge, Wright, and Pelfrey). Most of their top guys over the last several years have been scouted and traded from other organizations. All the more reason they should trade johan.
The Mets are desparate for Santana to go to Yanks or Sox.
That is why they keep pushing this idea that FMart is going to be the next great thing and they don't want to trade him.
Remember when Milledge was going to be that? Now we call him Church/Schiender.
Besides, as Sloppy would say-Omar doesn't want to play these kids anyway. He'll get another Lawrence before he has Pelfrey in the rotation full time. He'll get another Castillo before Gotay is out there.
Did anyone from the Piazza trade pan out? NO
How about from Keith H? Gary C? Delgado?
Maybe someone can come up w/a trade, but I can't think of one instance where the Mets traded away prospects for a top talent and did not fair better or came out even.
Why? B/c in general ML talent is more of a sure thing than prospects, epecially when the prospects of an org usually are not what they are touted to be.
The only time the have made bad trades is when they were desparate (Kazmir) or had an issue w/the player (Seaver).
Sorry, forgot about Nolan Ryan.
One time in 45 yrs.
Maybe when Pelfrey, Gomez and FMart are in the HOF we can all be ticked off.
As I said on the other thread, if we get Livan H and then do or do not get Santana we will be ok. I prefer to give up the 4 players mentioned even tho we have no pitchers coming up for a few years.
You give up on only one position player who probably won't really be ready for 2 years which is when FMart is supposed to come knocking.
As for LM, I believe 2 years ago FMart was still considered the better player with FMart, CarGo, LM being the order of talent – not which would be ready sooner.
And as for the 45 years thing, please…
We had a bunch of quality players come up in the early mid 80's. Of the Special K bunch one is a pretty good closer.
More recently we have Jose, David, Kaz.
I think management dismatled the 86 team as soon as we won but that is another story.
With all of the above I still think we should get Santana. It would energize the fan base and most likely the clubhouse.
people need to get off the Kazmir thing. Stop being scared to deal prospects. we ar etlaking the best pitcher in the game. Dealing Fernando and gomez would be tough, but hey, this is a win now team.
also, we have a lot of money coming off the books this season. we can fill those holes with that money AND the revenue from the new stadium.
dave: you must be young to think mgt dismantled the 86 team as soon as it won. They were together in 87 and all starters spent time on DL and they still amost won, they won division in 88 and blew series vs dodgers. Then a combination of addictions (Straw/Doc), age (Keith/Carter), weight (El Sid) sent the team in a slow but steady tailspin. It was not broken up as soon as it won.
dave: you are a true comedian as well, to imply that Livan/Santana we'll be fine either way. Thanks for the laugh!!!!! just teasing you beofre everyone goes off again!
scoop: the mets also developed Tugger, Gentry, Ryan, Singleton, Jeffries, Izzy, Hunt, Cleon maybe, Mookie, Dykstra, Backman, Preston Wilson became a pretty good player, AJ Burnett, Hubie Brooks, Rick Aguilera, all pretty good players…. This is all top of head so some may have come in kiddy trades….
franco: the problem with the kazmir trade was not the trading of a kid, it was trading him for a less than average return, similar to what Omar did with Milledge.
i don't remember people screaming when the mets got piazza.
Sloppy: I agree with you on the Kazmir thing. What I am saying is fans are now gun shy to make any trade involving a youngster. Dealing for santana is a no brainer, and if it is there, they gotta go for it. The guys we are dealing are not filling the holes we will have next year. We will have teh $$$ to go out and sign guys. If Teixeira hits the free agent market, i am sure we will break the bank for him as well. This team has the money to make up for dealing the prospects. Although I do like holding onto Fernando
First off I would like to state the obvious, the Sox are just in it to drive up the price on the Yankees.
Secondly, if Hank lets Cashman do his job then the Yanks won't get involved. I think the Twins had their shot at acquiring Hughes but blew it.
Thirdly, if both of these teams really wanted Santana it would have been done already.
just my opinion.
quick question – what pitchers are going to be free agents after the 2008 season? i know we want to win now, but if alou is hurt for 1/2 a season, delgado is washed up, and castillo only has one good leg, then we aren't winning this year even with johan. that being said, i am still in favor of trading for him as i think a santana, pedro, maine, perez, el duque/pelfry rotation looks pretty formidable, and i doubt we get the worst case scenario for all the question marks.
Sloppy,
I am refering to within one year trading away our center field of Mook and Nails. Then we had nothing in center. I never understood trading Mook if Nails was gonna leave soon after.
That meant the power/speed combo we had in 86 went away. Similar to todays team where we also have power and speed.
And yes. I think if we get Livan ( I am not saying he is perfect, would much prefer a Snell type ) we will have created some stability in the rotation and also help the pen. If we get Santana or do not we will have a better rotation. I think Pelfrey will be useful this year, but if he is our #5 we will be scrambling for pitching at some point this season when Pedro/El Duque go DL and he starts having issues at the same time.
This way we have more depth. If we have Santana too we still have some depth at pitching this year and have an Ace. For next year if we lose Pedro and El Duque we still have Santana/Maine/Ollie (hopefully)/Pelfrey/Livan. You would still have Sosa as a bridge and you can say that the loss of Humber/Mulvey/Guerra is not as critical.
If you do not get Santana you have those 3 in the next year or two to help with the rotation which will still have Maine/Ollie/Livan/Pelfrey. Not the strongest rotation but ok.
Dave
I also think the Twins are simply using the Mets to get the Yankees and Red Sox more interested. I think the Mets should issue an ultimatum. Take it or leave it, Twins. If the Mets drop out of the bidding the Twins would be in huge trouble.
I would trade the prospects if I could since the Mets prospects always stink anyway, but I just think it is not possible because Minnesota is using them.
I don't think it is going to be the Mets who give the Twins the ultimatum, I think it is going to be Santana. I think he wants to know where he is going to pitch whether it be with the Twins or any of the three teams mentioned.
Yes. At some point Omar needs to make them show their hand. This will cause a resolution so everyone can do what they will.
Getting Livan ( or someone like him ) while not ideal would also give us a stronger hand. The perceived need will be less and so make your hand stronger.
Either way they start all over in a few weeks. I for one feel better than I did in September. Going from a pig to a rat should help too.
Dave
I guess I'm going against the tide here, but I don't want any pitcher that is asking for a multiple years contract and over $130 Million Dollars.
Does that really sound like a good deal to you guys??
If so, I've got some property…..
dave: i can't argue with someone who thinks that any pitcher who doesn't get injured is valuable. it makes no sense to me but your opinion is fine. but have you looked at his record, quickly slipping away, innings declining every year and ERA rising. Even if pelfrey has no improvement in him, livan will be as bad as pelfrey… plus livan's innings were down to 204 last year and at the rate of slippage you ain't getting 200 innings no more from him. i will say this for livan, he can hit lefties so maybe you really want to platoon him in right with church?
as regards to the 86 mets, they traded dykstra but not until 89 and they thought juan samuel could play center. why, nobody ever figured out but that was the idea.
annie: While your ideas our interesting in theory, can you name any star pitcher or not so star pitcher who has pitched several years who doesn't have a multi year contract for too many millions of dollars?
getting Livan only makes sense if you get Santana and you have depeted your pitching. Today he would be a terrible acquisition. He was good but WAS is the key word. He was bad in 2006 and last year, and to anyone who says well he pitched in Arizona…. he stunk up cavernous RFK in 2006 as well.
I am not saying ( and have qualified myself several times on this ) that Livan is perfect but even has he loses whatever effectiveness he has he is still giving you 200 innings. With the power this lineup can produce that should get you by even with a 5 or so era.
I am also saying I think Pelfrey has learned from the wuppings visited upon him, but for a rookie pitcher we need more quantity and quality than he can probably give us at #5.
In the end I think a Livan @ two years buys us time and gives us what we need if not what we want ( paging the Stones ). If we still had Banister we would not be having this discussion. But we made the trade because we thought we needed a live arm in the pen over an adaquate but unproven one in the rotation. I think given the chance Pelfrey will give us 5-8 wins and maybe 120 innings if we are lucky. I believe those are standard numbers for a young pitcher. Like I said before, the other members of the staff are fragile so at this point I favour durability over potential.
As for the Nails/Mook discussion; maybe I am off in the years a bit, but they traded their center field platoon for no one. It was very disappointing. To me that was the end of the team.
I think I need to back sloppy and scoop here.
Mets need to get Johan, although I would be hesitant to deal both Gomez and FMart because I do think the Twins are just playing chicken at this point. I don't think the Sox are truly interested and the Yanks could always come in at the zero hour, but you have to think that if they were really interested this would be done already, like a poster above said.
The bottom line is this. With Johan, Maine, and Perez you have the makings of a nice rotation for years to come. You can supplement this with a free agent signing next year or bring back Pedro for a 1-2 year deal so the kids lower in the organization can develop.
As for the starting lineup, you'll still have Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Castillo, Church, and Schneider/Castro set for at least the next two seasons. Hopefully, they keep one of Fmart/Gomez to play RF (sliding Church to LF), and then you can a 1B. With the Mets' resources retooling should not be a problem.
Starting pitching, particularly ELITE starting pitching, is so rare. You have to pay a heavy tax if you can't develop your own. As optimistic as I am about Pelfrey, Mulvey, and Humber, I just can't see them becoming elite. They may have themselves fine careers, but elite… that takes a special player. Johan is there already and it would be very tough to criticize them trading prospects to bring back a player of Johan's caliber. This isn't Kazmir for Zambrano folks.
Thank you Keith. Finally a voice of reason. This is NOT like trading Kazmir for Victor Zambrano at all, and I think it's what a lot of Met fans are worried about. As far as the question about who thought Samuel would be a good CF,well probably the thought came from the same guys who thought HoJo and Keith Miller would make good CF's as well! But since those in charge brought the Mets a WS championship, I choose to cut them some slack.
I think we are splitting hairs here. I think everyone here would gladly have Johan on this team. There is the cost to consider, but at the end of the day it is the Twins and what they will do.
In the not too distant future Omar needs to put his cards on the table and say there ya go. If you are not willing to walk away from the negotiation then you are not negotiating.
For the sake of the organization the team needs to make a value judgement about where they are and what they will pay for the only ACE likely to be available to us any time soon.
Once they do that eveything is easy. You make the deal or you don't. The problem is if you do not know how to value what you have or do not know what you want.
This is what you pay a GM for. It is not an easy job, but as a former scout this is his time.
Dave
dave: if the mets have not done all the things you state a month, 2 months ago, by the winter mtgs last dec, then Omar is truly the incompetant and needs to go immediately.
unlike the sox and the nyy guys, the mets need to improve. the yanks seemingly trust their kiddy pitchers to keep them in the playoffs, or they don't but its a power struggle for control, and each side seems to know what they want to do, and the sox sre champs and have given kids and high priced guys jobs and let them go. could you see omar giving papelbon the closer job, HELL NO he wouldn't. but we weren't in the playoffs and we can't decide what to do?? please may this not be true…....
Well, I am glad Omar is aware of the fact that he is supposed to build a strong team for years to come, not just go all in trying to make the WS this year, Future be darned!
So this could easily explain why he has made a reasonable offer, certainly fair, but that is it. At some point you just can't give up maore players.
There is a reason that most trades like this (4/5 for 1) only usually include 1-2 top guys and ML ready talent, and are filled out by lower level guys. Although I guess in this case, that would be Guerra.
Also a reason the don't include a teams top 5 prospects!
Realistically, how many guys in the minors could be called up in 2008 and be expected to add any value? Maybe Gomez, Humber, Mulvey. Oops. All gone! And if you include Martinez and Guerra too, that wipes out the cream of the system a few years down the line. And even if they aren't coming up, you want to have the assets available for other trades.
Not saying they shouldn't try for (or couldn't use) Santana, just that the cost in prospects has to be reasonable, or you pass.
And that doesn't even take into account the contract.
JD, I can't agree with you this time. I hate to repeat myself, but let me say this one more time…
Ace = Ace!
Prospect = prospect!
Prospects are good, and it's a DREAM in our future, but IT IS STILL A DREAM! you would never know…
After all, it IS Johan Santana! We are not talking about the like of Joe Blanton here…
GET IT DONE!!!
And I refuse to believe that Mets don't have money!
stick, "And if you include Martinez and Guerra too, that wipes out the cream of the system a few years down the line."
Not to just pick on you, but why do so many fans think that any of these prospects are going to be top talent. We've been told by the experts that they are just ok. Just ok doesn't sound like perenial AS, Cy winners, MVPers. Just ok sounds like Heilman types.
THE METS HAVE SHOWN NO ABILITY TO DEVELOP PLAYERS!!!
Yes, they have a had a few. A few over 45 yrs should not make people believe that things have changed. Not w/the way Omar has handled the farm which has been given a thumbs down by the experts.
Mets are not the Braves.
They are not the O's from yrs ago.
Plus, as I stated earlier, I challenge anyone to name three prospects the Mets traded who went on to have great careers (MVP, cy young).
There is only one-Nolan Ryan. You could maybe say Kevin Mitchell (but that was only for a couple yrs).
"Prospects are good, and it’s a DREAM in our future, but IT IS STILL A DREAM! you would never know…"
Exactly. It is a dream. And this org and its fans are dreaming if they think these players are more than just ok MLers.
Exhibit A-Lastings Milledge.
Suppose to be the next gary sheffield.
Now he is just Ryan Church.
Piazza-who did they give up. Nobody.
Keith H- no one
Gary C-no one
Al Leiter-no one
etc, etc etc.
I agree with pvhornet05—this process is going to be driven by Santana, whose no-trade clause allows him to dictate when and to whom he'll accept a trade.
In regard to the "when," rumors say he wants this settled by Spring Training. If accurate, that's placing mounting pressure on the Twins to do something.
More interesting, I think, is the concept of "to whom," particularly if Santana has already placed conditions on the Twins. Look at it this way: In order for Minnesota to realize value in this deal, the other team has to be able to sign Santana to a long-term deal within the 72-hour negotiating window. So, from Santana's standpoint, this trade is his free agency—only he'll have 72 hours to negotiate with one team. As such, if Santana were to tell the Twins he'd only be interested in the NL, Minnesota would have to decide between the Mets package or letting him walk after the 2008 season.
I do have a question for Delcos: Why would Boston be interested in Santana?
It seems to me they already have an abundance of starting pitching, including front-end starters like Dice-K and Beckett. I can't see them that committed to dealing away 3-4 prospects and paying over $20 million per season for a guy who could end up being their second- or third-best starter.
I think this derby comes down to whether the Yanks would rather keep their young pitching prospects or trade them for a proven veteran. But, I think first and foremost, the Yanks' interest is in keeping Santana out of Boston.
As much as I appreciate John Delcos hard work, I just think he is not as familiar with Mets history as most of us here. The bottom line is Mets prospects are basically worthless. Other than Wright and Reyes they have produced almost no players of great value in 20 years. We have all heard of the Alex Escobars and Alex Ochoa's of the world, but they all stink when they get here. Most Met fans have no problem giving up prospects to get a pitcher like Santana.
OK scoopcoop:
Guys the Mets traded who won major awards:
Kevin mitchelll MVP You listed him
Nolan Ryan He didn't win Cy Young but I think he did ok and made Hall.
Jeff Reardon Rolaids Relief man of Year
Randy Myers Rolaids Relief Man of Year twice
Ken Singleton Roberto Clemente Award
Jeff Kent altho not a Met prospect they got him as a prospect and then before he reached stardom they traded him for CARLOS BAERGA YUCH!!!!!!! Kent won MVP…
JD, you're quite possibly to most negative, cynical Mets blogger I have ever met….
Omar P
those are a stretch at best
Jeff Reardon Rolaids Relief man of Year
Randy Myers Rolaids Relief Man of Year twice
Ken Singleton Roberto Clemente Award
Jeff Kent
Reardon was not a prospect when traded nor was Meyers
Singleton-I believe that is a nice guy award? doesn't count as far as being an impact player
Kent-he doesn't count either since he was not a prospect
But I'll agree that they didn't get back much for those guys except Meyers (Franco I believe?)
Todd "Other than Wright and Reyes they have produced almost no players of great value in 20 years."
They key words are "no players"
The last impact (defined as MVP, cy) player Mets traded prospects for was Piazza.
Did any of those guys do anything? NO
And what did Mets do w/Piazza? WS
i find it funny how delcos is basically THE ONLY journalist and/or sports personality saying the mets have little to no chance. Even Mike Francessca came around. unless you have some super sources, that no one else is talking to it's quite unfair to state as a fact we're being used as "chumps". yanks are chumps trying to offer melky cabrera as an actually attractive piece in a trade
John, your work is getting pretty pathetic. I know you are still depressed about getting pushed over to the Mets from your beloved Yankee, but get over it.
I definitely believe that the Twins have no desire to trade to the Mets unless everything else falls through… if the Twins had been really looking to deal with the Mets?
The Mets would've been in there from the start as opposed to only after Boston and the Yankees balking at giving up their entire AAA clubs for one guy they'd have to lock in for 20Huge a year for forever to get the no-trade waived.
You play the Mets to try and get the Yankees to jump so that you can get the Red Sox to jump.
Twins have pitching prospects, they need a MLB-ready CF and left side of the infield prospects.
The Mets can give pitching prospects and a CF who is at least a year away. The Yanks can give pitching prospects and a CF.
The Red Sox have what the Twins actually need.
All else is game.
I think that both the Yankees and the Red Sox would be fine with Johan Santana ending up on the Mets. They just don't want each other to get him. That's why I don't buy this notion that they are using the Mets to drive up the price. The bidding would go much higher if the Mets were out of it because then the Red Sox and Yankees would be desperate to keep Santana away from the other. Its not a ploy at all. The Twins will take the best offer they can get.
Please stop the obsessing over Santana.
I hope something will happen by the end of February, but I am just so tired of all talk.
The Twins GM is in a tough spot, yes I know Met fans don't care, the trade will define his tenure on the job and he does not want to screw up.
The truth is he already did and now he's screwed.
His best deal was Hughes, Melkey and some prosepects and he overplayed his hand. Now the Yankees can't trade Melkey because they have no real fall back option for CF.
The Red Sox do not want him because paying Santana all that money will piss off Beckett and means they will have to redo his contract or he could create lots of problems in the clubhouse.
I expect some team out of leftfield could end up with him.
I have no hope that he will be a Met and if it happens it will be a nice surprise.
By your definiton of prospects there are virtually no prospects around. Winning Cy/MVP which is often won by same guy multiple times leaves few prospects in the world. The guys the other guy listed won awards, were fairly young when traded and were all good players.
Now of your point to us is that in the majority of cases, the team getting the ace usually wins the trade, I think you'd be found right if someone went thru all the trades for stars. By the way, trading for Delgado who won the Hank aaron award for kids was a major deal made after the Piazza trade of course. I think it was Omar's last hoorah!
Slop,
"Now of your point to us is that in the majority of cases, the team getting the ace usually wins the trade, I think you’d be found right if someone went thru all the trades for stars. "
You look at any sport and the team that gets the know commmodity (the star) wins b/c the unknown (prospects) are less likely to pan out.
Why B/c the team trading away the know guy is usally in a position where they have to do it. The only reason the Twins are tradeing Santana is b/c they have to. Any time in life you do not have the upper hand in a negotiaition, you usually lose.
And I didn't say that prospects are only defined as guys who end up winning cy, MVPs. My point is that most Prospects end up being Aaron Heilman's at best w/many never making any contribution of any kind.
And in the Mets history, they are filled w/the later and only a now and then Heilman, and alomst no MVPers, CYers.
Chances of any of these players being MVPers, CYers is slim-just based upon the Mets hype machine and their poor player dev history. And if they are not gonna be great players, why keep them? Even Heilmans of the world can be replaced. Santana's can't.
Don't get wrapped up in Mets hype of prospects. They want fans to believe these guys are gonna be great so that they won't have a PR issue when they don't land Santana.
The gist of the previous posts is that you only want MVP type players – is that correct? Perhaps the Mets are not the team for you—I'm sure the Yankees would be happy to have you cheer for all their award winning players and still a New York team.
Have any of you heard Willie and/or Omar speak about their team over the Winter? They are very encouraging and optimistic about the TEAM and how they played so well together last year. Both of them are eager for Spring training and getting the Mets ready for a final season at Shea.
For those who insist on awards and individuals – watch Tiger.
This may be a lot off the subject but do the Twins want to trade Santana now? I understand they don't want to be questioned about it everyday once spring training starts but do they still have tickets to sell? If they trade him now without getting at least one major leaguer in return, would fans demand refunds with an attorney general to step in (it happened to the New York Nets 30 years ago when they sold Julius Erving to the 76ers). How much lower would his price be June 1st if the Yankees are struggling and they are getting hit in the media for letting Torre go, etc?
John, come on now. If we are losing Delgado, Pedro, Alou and the rest, we have all that extra money to spend on whoever. So that excuse doesn't fly. The players they are trading won't amount to anything close to Santana and the fact is, this team NEEDS him.
Annie,
fact is teams that win have players that are good, really good. If you want to watch Teams for the sake of teamwork where the level of players is equal and teamwork means as much as talent, go to a HS game.
If Mets spent like Yanks and had players like Yanks and won like Yanks, you'd get no argument from me.
You must be a Jets, Knicks and Rangers fan too b/c you seem to enjoy supporting teams that don't have enough talent to win.
I'm a Mets fan. But it doesn't mean I have to drink the Koolaid they throw at us.
By the way, Carlos Gomez was taken off the DR team that is playing in the Carribean WS.
Maybe a sign of things to come?
Scoop, the Yankees haven't won anything since 2000.
Their dynasty was built around: Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte. These guys were all home grown. Then they supplemented them with some smart trades and signings. They brought in Tino, Brosius, O'Neil (remember, they traded Roberto Kelly, which was somewhat controversial at the time), Knoblauch, etc.
The point I am making is you and sloppy are both partially right. You can't build a team of prospects (well, unless you HAVE to, like the Rockies) and expect to win consistently. You need to develop players and then supplement those players by adding what you need.
For example, you can do what the Red Sox did, signing Manny, finding Ortiz, signing Drew, trading for Beckett, and then using their prospects as cheap role players.
Or you can do it like the Phillies/Braves, where you develop some stars and then fill out the roster with trades and signing.
Now, the trick is identifying what kind of prospects you have, keeping the right ones, and bringing in the right players. The Mets are somewhat mixed.
However, the way they are constructed, I think a Johan trade would be prudent. This team's lineup is mostly signed for the next 2-3 seasons. Yes, they'll need to find a LF and 1B, but you would assume one of Gomez/Martinez (whoever isn't traded) will fill an OF spot and 1B are a dime a dozen.
Saw something on SNY where one of the reporters said the Yanks offer was put out by the Twins and that Boston really is not interested.
So that leaves the Mets offer of 4 players as the best of the bunch if they want to deal. Hope it is true and hope we get him in the next week or so.
Keith, "the Yankees haven’t won anything since 2000.
Their dynasty was built around: Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte. These guys were all home grown"
The haven't won the WS, but I'll take 10+yrs of playoffs anytime.
You can build from w/in. But you have to be good at it.
The Yanks had a great GM who dev Jeter and Rivera (lock HOFers) and Williams, Posada and Pettite (AS). I don't see any evidence that Omar is Gene Micheals.
"but you would assume one of Gomez/Martinez (whoever isn’t traded) will fill an OF spot and 1B are a dime a dozen."
Hopefully one of them is not traded, but I wouldn't hold them back if it is a deal killer b/c the Mets have 40MM coming off the books w/Pedro, Delgado, Alou and Elduqe. They will have $$$ to get an OFer and 1Bman.
Annie You have accidently hit on exactly what the biggest problem is with the Mets front office. You say that Omar and Willie are very encouraged bvy how well the team played together last year. Well, if they are pleased with one of the greates collpses in baseball history then we don't want them runnong our team. They should be mad as hell, like the fans are.
keith, the Yankees have been in the playoffs every year since 2000 while the Mets have made the playoffs once since then. Secondly, you describe a plan by all the teams you mention while the Mets have no plan other than Omar chasing dreams as he is being used by others and then picking players off the garbage heap and having a prayer session with the Wilpons that one or two will do ok so they can say look what we've done. He does everything the last two years just enough to say I tried but always failing. He wasted time on Zito and Dice K, spent July chasing after nothing when all he needed was one decent relief pitcher to survive and all this Winter chasing what? we'll see…..
And unlike all the other teams you mention when they decide to go with a kid, they go with him. Omar goes with a kid for a little while and at the first struggle he gets a has been. Even the Yanks stuck with Cano and if they keep Hughes they'll stick to him just like they did with Waing.
slop, "Omar goes with a kid for a little while and at the first struggle he gets a has been. Even the Yanks stuck with Cano and if they keep Hughes they’ll stick to him just like they did with Waing."
It might be that Omar has less faith in the kids. But I think it is more b/c these kids just are not that good b/c he doesn't do his job of player selection/dev.
Yanks, Sox have better young talent b/c they apparantely do a better job of scouting.
Same goes for any team in sports that is on top. Ex. Pats. Even the Giants new GM seems to have done a decent job.
Hence, best to trade these prospects while no one can be sure that they will turn out to only be so-so and then all you get is Church.
scoop: almost all kids have a struggle time. Th difference is that most team make a commitment and give it time to pan out or fail. Even when the kid is excelling Omar panics and makes a move; what did he want Gotay to do last year hit 700?
Take dustin Pedroia, In 06 he got a look and hit under .200. omar would have made a trade for a Catillo or something. Red sox stucj wiuth the kid and he hit well over 300. Its not the kids Scoop, its the front office having a plan or having nothing. Omar has nothing. The Yanks wre desperate for bullpen help last year. They moved Chamberlain to the pen, got him used to it and brought him up. What did the Mets do with Humber. Let him rot for a month and thrn threw him to the wolves the last week of the season. That was disgraceful what they did to him. We have to lose our only catching prospect to the rule 5 because this lousy GM gives multi year deals to 48 year olds. Give me a break.
From all the reports I've been reading, cashman convinced Hal Steinbrenner to keep his young pitching and Boston was in it to keep Santana away from the Yankees and that Boston doesn't really want to add to there cap so the Mets are the front runners. The twins offered Santana 5 years 100m. as a last ditch effort and santana turned it down. The twins are either going to trade Santana to the mets or hold on to him and maybe
a pitching spot will open up for the yankees or the redsox during the season. I also read that Santana wants to come to the Mets which would make sense because him and castillo are friends. I just don't want to give up martinez. I'm willing to give up any of the other minor leaguers and gomez but not martinez.
The guys on the FAN are sounding like Santana is going to the Mets. I wonder if Delcos' blog scared the Twins into trying to get something done?
Slop, "almost all kids have a struggle time. Th difference is that most team make a commitment and give it time to pan out or fail. Even when the kid is excelling Omar panics and makes a move; what did he want Gotay to do last year hit 700?"
Not saying you are wrong but I can give examples where Mets did allow young guys to play and they proved themselves (Maine, Perez).
I just think at this point that some of the players being touted as something great that come from w/in the org (not from outside of it like Maine/perez) are just not that good.
So, trade them while you can get the best pitcher in BB. Hold onto the best one(s) if you can but don't make a deal breaker.
I don't want to hear in the paper or on the radio that FMart kept us from getting Santana.
The difference between Maine/Perez and the other kids is that Omar traded for them so he had to give them a chance. Perez was a major leaguer who entered Omar's favorite land, the scrap heap, and I don't know if Maine was an Oriole reject or what but I know the Pirates couldn't wait to rid themselves of Oliver. We gave them a good player when we could have given them cash or a couple of used baseballs.
Looks like Mets could land Santana.
4 for 1 including Gomez and Humber.
I guess they didn't listen to Delcos.
According to Bob Nightengale of USA Today, the deal is done pending a physical and contract agreement by Santana…
Take it easy people, the mets and santana still have to agree on a deal so it's not official.
tomg why so negative
The Mets have the money and will spend on quality.
I also was wrong I never thought it would really happen.
I guess sometimes if you hang around long enough you get lucky and yes the Mets got lucky.
METSBLOG SAYS THE METS GOT SNTANA….. WE FORGIVE YOU OMAR
I'm not being negative, all I'm saying is that the mets have 48-72 hours to sign him si it's not official until he signs a contract with the mets, that's all i am saying here. I like that Omar was smart enough not to give up Martinez who bar far is the mets best prospect.
tom g: absolutely correct on Martinez. Not giving him up makes this a great deal. 72 hours gives the Mets time to get Santana jerseys in the store. ( just joking about the jerseys )
"The Twins are playing the Mets for chumps."
Ha Ha ha ha!
Thank you delcos for making the deal happen. You tricked the Twinkies! OK Omar we like you again but no more trades for Schneiders and Church's. Only the best or forget it.
now, moving on to the future. Next year the mets will clear up
about 40 mil in salary and the first basemen for the braves will be a free agent. He wants a no trade clause and atlanta has a policy where they don't give those clauses so if I was the mets I would give him the no trade clause and sign Teirra
next year to play first base.
“The Twins are playing the Mets for chumps.”
????????
What happened Jon?
There is absolutely no way the Wilpons will screw this up—- try to imagine the reaction of the fan base coming off the pain of last season. No way, no how—they know how much this signing might cost and they would never have let Omar go out on such a limb.
I'm pretty shocked, though John—- you seemed pretty sure this would not happen.
JT
And now Omar has played John Delcos as a chump…Can't win em all buddy…. Cheer up.