Mets sign Valentin
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- January
- 18
The Mets signed Jose Valentin to a minor league contract this afternoon. Valentin, 38, hit .241 (40-166) with 11 doubles, one triple, three home runs and 18 RB in 51 games before he fractured his right tibia when he fouled a pitch off his leg, July 20, at LA.
Said GM Omar Minaya: “Jose is progressing well from his surgery and already is rehabbing for his return. We hope he can bounce back and help us in a variety of ways.’‘
Valentin hopes to be playing in mid-March. He hit .271 (104-384) with 24 doubles, three triples, 18 home runs and 62 RBI in 137 games in 2006. If Valentin is able to play anything like he did that season it’s a no-brainer for the Mets. Plus, he has a positive influence on Jose Reyes, which is probably the biggest reason in bringing him back.
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on Friday, January 18th, 2008 at 3:08 pm by John Delcos.
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I like them signing Valentin if he is heatlhy. I know he is “old”, but, played a clutch second base for them in 2006, learning the position while doing it. He also seemed to get some key hits when they just could not put away the division. If he can cover the corner outfield positions when others are off, he provides an added power hitting bat. I know that leg injuries are tough to return from, but, I will be rooting for him through Spring Training to make the club.
They got more out of this guy than I ever thought.
I doubt he makes the team. Time to move on. At east it was only a minor L deal
He is a was not a now.
Let’s all go out and buy our playoff tickets. I mean Jose Valentin is back.
Jose has been a very good player for us. I know he is old but in addition to being a bottom line game it is also a game of relationships. Even in free agency a small move like this means something.
He is also great insurance. He can play effectively at the MLB level while Andy Hernandez still struggles in AAA.
If he really is the influence on Jose as he is rumored a spot on the roster is a small price to pay to keep Jose playing like an MVP.
Dave
I hope the deal also included a new first basemen’s mitt for him. It looks right now that Delgado’s back up is going to be by committee. Would not hurt to see how he handles first in Spring Training. Anderson and Easley have both only played a handful of games for their career at first. As things stand now, I do not see the Mets signing a backup first baseman like Tony Clark, or, bringing up Tracy from AAA. It would short them carrying one relief pitcher.
Funny thing is that Valentin looks younger and more mobile than Castillo when he is healthy. I like this move. It costs relatively little, if healthy he will be a good fill-in for both Castillo and Reyes. Plus a good clubhouse guy.
No harm no foul no big deal. More OF depth too Valentin would be.
What a great winter this has been!!!!!
Yeah, Jose Valentin was real great for us when he struck out against Jeff Suppan with the run that would have put us in the World Series at third base with one out after Scott Rolen through the ball in the photographer’s box in 2006. I was in the ballpark, and have been at Shea for most of the greatest and worst moments in Mets history, and let me tell you that strikeout was one of the worst moments in Met history. It was an out that possibly could have cost us a World Championship. Every time I see Jose Valentin’s face after that strikeout it makes me sick.
Just another half-crippled old guy to hold back Gotay from learning how to field at a major league level. Blah.
Met bench:
Easley
Anderson
Castro
Chavez
Valentin or Pagan
Sorry Mike C. No kid will even make the Minaya bench. Expoect to see Omar sign Colon or some other broken down pitcher so there can be no kid in the rotation either.
Fot thise who thought that Jose or Delgado needed some rest, forget about it again.
It will be interesting to see what they do w/Gotay.
I’d bet he gets traded for some garbage and has a decent yr for somebody else b/c as said above, young guys have no chance to play.
All the more reason to trade the farm for Santana.
FYI – CSPAN will re-air the MLB Steroid Hearings on Saturday morning:
11:09 AM EST
2:02 (est.)
House Committee
Steroid Use in Major League Baseball Part 1
Oversight and Government Reform
Henry Waxman , D-CA
George J. Mitchell , D-ME
01:11 PM EST
2:01 (est.)
House Committee
Steroid Use in Major League Baseball Part 2
Oversight and Government Reform
Henry Waxman , D-CA
Donald M. Fehr , Major League Baseball Players Association
Scoop: I would think Omar Padilla’s bench needs a little tweaking. Unfortuantely, he’s probably got it pegged, but who is the back up at short? third? first? Who is Alou’s replacement since Endy can’t fit the bill with a guy locked at the 2 hole and 8 hole? I’m not going on. it would take too long.
I know a lot of guys think Willie sucks but how do you manage with a bench with so little flexibility, a rotation that can’t go deep and a bullpen with no depth of talent?
slop,
Putting my conspiracy hat on—-maybe it is all a setup to get Willie fired so Omar can keep the blame away from himself.
But Easely or Anderson are gonna have to spell Castillo, Reyes and Delgado. I would guess this Angel Pagan will be the 5th OF. I would guess that Endy will be in the 7 hole when he plays.
On another note
Mets LHP Oliver Perez, and his agent Scott Boras, requested 2008 salary $6.5 MM.
The Mets countered with a proposal of $4.7 MM.
I hope they are smart and figure out how to keep this kid. Especially if they don’t get Santana.
sloppy: While I think Omar has done a really poor job with setting up the team, I don’t buy any conspiracy theory against Willie. Willie will go before Omar, just like Bobby V went before Phillips. That’s just the way it usually goes.
Easley or Anderson at shortstop. That is pathetic. Endy in the 7 hole is totally useless spot. His only value is 1, 2 or 8. Church in the 6 hole eh? Well, don’t expect anything out of Delgado the second Alou goes down, especially vs lefties. We’re gonna suck and their all gonna throw every lefty they can at us. I now think we’ll be below .500 this year.
that was supposed to start with Scoop, not me!!! sorry!
Go GIANTS!!!!!!!!!
Economics of Santana-Yahoo Sports
Santana’s potential revenue value to the Mets would average an estimated $40 million per year and would exceed his cost by about $100 million over six years, assuming the Mets can stay under the luxury tax threshold.
Maybe Omar can hire this guy to do some math so he can convince the Coupons to sign the check.
Pretty optomistic there Sloppy. I do agree, however, that the bench is a bit out of whack. I like the bats, but the gloves aren’t really there.
FOr the OF/1B, I still think they need a RH power bat to back up or split time with Delgado and CHurch (Mench and Nady being mentioned in the past). Not sure if they have anyone in the system though (Harper theoretically could have been an option).
For the infield, they do need at least Gotay, but it would be nice if they had a solid back up for SS, unless Reyes is playing every inning again.
Anderson and Easley can probably handle an occasional game at 1B, but I don’t think you want to see them there too often.
So, Gotay is the best option I guess right now, unless they take the plunge and go with a 6 man pen and carry 6 men on the bench too. That way, they could carry Anderson Hernandez possibly.
The problem with Reyes is, even if they spot him a little more than last year, the back up SS will get very little use, so he needs to be able to cover other duties (PH or fielding).
Or, the old guys on the bench will just have to throw some leather too!
Stick I think I’m being realistic.
Listen to the problems. You called the bench well; and can this team go with a 6 man pen. No it can’t because none of the starters can pitch deep into games. So there is no way to go with a short pen. Last year Green was an adequate first base option and played pretty well. This year if Delgado gets hurt there’s nobody anywhere. Gotay is a good backup as you say but will he make the team. His only chance is if Valentin doesn’t make it, and Pagan is in the minors and if they don’t get a righty to play right because Omar got a part time player for right.
We’re not getting Nady. He’s an everyday player and just agreed to a new deal with the Pirates.\\
We have no real sub for Alou. If he misses 3 months, wheres the siub. Endy just isn’t the kind of player to fill his roll in the line up. Pagan is a similar type player to Endy.
Our pen is living on prayers that Sanchez is OK, but who knows. Wagner is a little older and a little slower, Heilmann is hit and cold. Schoeneweis getting better??? Wise is an improvement over over Mota, but will we have a long man like 2 years ago? Will Smith get the seasoning he needs? Ambiorix is out most of the year. So the pen also has no depth to fill in for DL stints. Will Pelfrey take Glavine’s spot and pitch 200 innings? I hope but he hasn’t shown any consistency. Will we talk about his one good start vs the Braves for as long as we talked about Heilmann’s one good start? How many times will Pedro need that extra day like they gave him in September forcing us to find a 6th man? Even catcher. Who’s the 3rd guy when a catcher gets hurt. We even lost DeFelice this winter. I guess at 2B we have subs galore!!!!!
I really find this team either weak or lacking depth at too many places to be a contender.
well, every team has a worst case scenerio!
THe pen for some reason doesn’t concern me that much. I think it should be more reliable than last year.
Fro the bench, the real key is the regulars staying healthy. 3B, SS are both exposed, and it is iffy if they have legit replacements for LF or 1B is those guys go down, it could be ugly.
That’s why I think a guy like Mench could be a big pickup. They need someone that can still provide offense, not just an Endy that is a s/t defensive replacement.
OK,, say they get Mench. Why didn’t they just get him as a free agent instead if trading Milledge for Church? They could have had Schneider for any low prospect. Who does he replace on the bench? He’d be a better sub for Alou than Endy, at least he’d fit in the lineup as a Alou replacement. But I don’t see it happening, do you?
So Mench replaces:
Castro NO
Easley NO
Chavez No
Anderson NO
Valentin or Pagan that’s the only place.
But he never played First. I suspect they will deem Pagan the platoon guy with Church until Alou goes down and then he and Endy split LF. It won’t be good but that’s my guess.
One of the 2nd baseman will play first no matter how bad they do it.
“the real key is the regulars staying healthy”
You can say that for every team in the ML. More so for Mets since MinorL’s stink.
But saving grace for Mets might be that rest of division is not so great either.
Still say team is 85 wins at best.
Sloppy, my assumption is that the upgrade in the OF would come at the expense of Endy. With his hammy issues, who knows if he will even be ready for the season.
Actually, there are 2 different needs. 1st is defensive replacements and spot starts (when Alou or Delgado are resting). Easley, Anderson, Endy or even Pagan can handle that.
What they don’t really have, is legit replacements if one of them goes on the DL. I really don’t see any of the bench players being able to play regularly for a real stretch of time.
Guess that leaves someone from the minors having to come up to play. Gomez I assume is 1st up for OF. Carp for 1B? Or is it Ledee time or equivelant? I doubt you would see Martinez at this point.
Of course the dynamic changes if they are both traded…
Any scenario that expects Anderson to field at all is a very bad scenario.
I’m not hatin’ on the Marlon… he is a clutch pinch-hitter to have on your bench… but the guy is a ridiculous butcher in the field at all positions.
There was no on-the-field logic to letting go of Milledge, lets not try to create any out of spun sugar months later.
Omar and Willie seem to LIKE having a team run by veteran former stars whose talent meter was run dry by injury or age or both… Delgado, Alou, Castillo, Green, Floyd, the list goes on and on… and don’t mind pushing out growing young talent to do it.
There was nothing on the market that was going to do better than Milledge in RF next year… for almost nothing… and there still isn’t.
They want polite mellow likeable guys regardless of their actual on-field production and they want guys whose names meant something ten years ago regardless of their actual on-field production because…
They’re not running this team to win.
They’re running this team to get more positive press than the Yankees.
There’s kind of no other logic to it.
They’re managing this team to please the back page of the Post and frankly it sucks. It sucks hard.
Mike C: I think you called the Milz trade perfectly.
Just one thing Mr C. Willie don’t make the deals or the roster. He may like old guys but Omar is the one who keeps signing them. Omar dumped Milz, Omar brought in Cstillo so you lost your spot for Gotay…. Omar lost Flores… OMAR gets rid of the kids.
Mike C
I think you misjudged the free agent OF market completely. There were a number of OF available. The question is do they want to come here and do you want to pay?
LM for all his talent has yet to show me he is a starter in this league. Perhaps he will have a good year in DC. Perhaps having a manager who strokes you every time you breathe will help his attitude and allow him to relax.
But in NY you are not handed the position when you are on a playoff team and ‘allowed’ to make mistakes for half a year or more and have your boss say no worries.
Dave
dave: Milledge was not on a playoff team. And he was not given the job. He was jerked in and out from the day they called him up. Remember his year? Earned the right field job at Spring training, but was relegated to rot on bench until being sent down. Then got hurt. Was rushed back after healing because team was in desperate shape in the OF. Was never given the chance to play regularly for extended time.
PS: dave: ELI MANNING . If your theory was correct he would have been dumped two-three years ago. Thank goodness Omar and the Wilpons don’t run or should I say ruin the G-MEN. Eli would have been traded, and the team would have been 8-8 under the leadership of an over the hill broken down old QB. Eli wasn’t allowed to make mistakes for a half a year. No. just 3 and a half years.
Great point comparing Eli to Milz. There is no position in all of sports with more pressure from the media than QB, esp in NY. If the Giants could be patient with their QB, then why in hell couldn’t the Mets show patience with a prospect, like they did before Minaya came on board? The Giants got rid of Warner to speed Manning’s progress. The Mets got Green to impede Milledge’s progress.
Another point to remember, especially for all the Willie bashers is that a year ago virtually everyone was calling for Tom Coughlin’s head. Well I guess we were all wrong on that one baby!
Comparing Millidge and Eli is interesting but I think a bit of a reach. A starting OF is not the same as a QB on a football team. A QB controls the whole offense in football and this is not the case of an OF in baseball.
I think a better comparison would be A starting pitcher or A catcher. Case in point would be the way the Mets have jerked around Pelfrey. Lets hope they do the right thing with Pelfrey but my guess is many of you are not counting on it.
Sloppy,
You make some good points. Yes the young guys are jerked around. Except for a desperate team I don’t know of any normal situation that this does not happen with young players who should really spend 2 more years in AAA learning how to play the game.
Yong players get the raw deal certainly and will get jerked around. Gotay is another example.
However that is the life. As for the comparison between Eli and LM I beg to differ. In MLB they have many different places to put a player to learn the game. in the NFL as a #1 draft pick there is no where to hide. QB’s in particular have traditionally taken 3-5 years to mature and figure out the game. The fact that the Gints had no ready alternatives and decided to go with him than pick up a vet to play until he was ready was mgmts decision.
As for the Mets of 2007, yes they were a playoff team. I do not know of one voice on this blog that did not believe that until the end. This is not the Mets of 1981 or 2003. This was the team that was one game from the World Series of 2006. That makes them a playoff team.
I agree they gave up on LM too early. I am hoping Omar knows what he is doing and the catcher and RF will work out ok. I do not believe either has the potential to be a star like LM does. Howerver, I believe that who LM is will more likely make him a Milton Bradley type of player than a Carlos Beltran. A useful but self destructive player who will never live up to what he can be.
Dave
dave you totoally miss the point. In football you haveno farm system but you have old guys who you can play and keep the kid on the bench for a year or four, like the Jets dod with chad Pennngtopn, or you can say dump the vet and let the kid learn the ropes and show patience. That’s what the Giants did with Eli. They dumped Warner when they had a winning record to give Eli the experience. The Mets are frauds. They gave Milledge the job when they traded Nady, then with a big lead and nobody chasing they dumped in for Green, then they gave him no developemtn time anywhere last year and then they gave him up for little in talent. Scott might have a better comparison with Pewlfrey but its the same story. There the Mets gave bum after starts instead of letting Pelfrey learn his way.
Secondly, why do you young players get a shot in the Bronx?? Cano, Waing, Cahmberlain, Hughes??? THey were all brought up in recent years and given the job. And what aboput the Sox?? They gave a rookie the closer job, and now Pedroia last year? What makes the situation there, where winning is also mandatory, different for kids than in Queens? I’ll tell you the difference. Omar just doesn’t want them, he would rather lose with a broken down vet cause he can blame injuries…..
But would you let Eli go through his growing pains if you had two equal or better prospects waiting in the wings, as the Mets do in Gomez and Martinez? I don’t fault the Mets for dealing Milledge; to me, the question is whether they got the best deal available, and that’s something probably known only by Omar.
It’s hard to give your prospects a chance when they’re not playing up to their potential and/or complicating matters with behavioral issues.
Since we are getting closer to pitchers and catchers, I was wondering who the Mets have for catching beyond Scheider and Castro since DiFelice has signed a minor league deal with Tampa Bay and Alomar Sr is scheduled to retire? Also, other than Carp do the Mets have anyone else at the AAA or level that can play first? We are continually looking at what potential they may give away to go for Santana and I am honestly wondering what actually they have in the farm systems other than the once mentioned that are trade worthy.
Omar,
If I recall Kurt did not have a good year with the Gints before they let him go. So he was not really the vet option they would use in place of the #1 pick to lead the team. Additionally you have the name factor of his father and brother that the Gints hoped would soon be theirs in the Meadowlands.
In football unlike baseball you regularly have rookies be pivotal players on your team, either on the bench or as starters. So I do not believe making the comparison between baseball and football is valid.
I agree that the Yanks seem to do better at developing young talent than we do, but I do not follow them and so cannot comment.
Our top young players beside LM have been Pelfrey and Humber. Both were recently injured but were still counted on to provide help soon. Pelfrey was given a starting spot on the team last year and the manager/GM ( who this blog has blasted ) stayed with him for a long time in the face of to put it mildly not good results.
As for LM, two years ago he was brought up to taste the life and did as most rookies do. We traded XMan out of necessity and soon after picked up Green. LM was never an option for a team heading into the post season as the starting RF.
Last year after a good spring LM was hurt and with injuries we brought up CarGo who after a few weeks of AAA jitters did well first in the field and then at the plate until he got hurt.
I never thought LM played a good OF last year. He had his moments at the plate but late in the year could not hit the breaking ball.
So given the above – unless you disagree with my assessment – how is LM shafted by the Mets when to date he has not shown he is ready to be a starter? Yes he has talent. I think we all see that. But he has his flaws which in my mind he still has not solved.
Only playing time can resolve them. Perhaps he will be a good player. I believe that right now he is not. I do not agree with trading him for what they got. I think they could have upgraded the positions they did through the trade in other ways and kept LM.
As I state above, my assessment of LM is not quite as high as others’ here. But i do agree that the trade should not have been made.
Dave
It seems that if the Mets make the trade of 4 or more players for Santana we will have serious issues fielding a team in 09.
I think you can find a 1B for 2009 but we potentially lose 2 starting pitchers to retirement and you also have to decide about LF.
Actually, the package the Mets are offering (Gomez, Humber, Guerra and Mulvey) would allow them to keep Pelfrey and Fernando Martinez, both of whom could be slated for regular roles in 2009.
As for the rotation, the Mets have said that, post-Generation K, they will never again try to place three rookies in their rotation at the same time. If that’s the case, you have to figure 1-3 would be Santana, Maine and Perez, with Pelfrey among the candidates to fill the back end. And I’m not so sure Pedro will be ready to retire, either.
Chavez just signed for two years. If he is healthy, he is definitely worth locking him up for two years. I thought when they got Pagan they may be looking to package Endy. I do not think that is the case any longer.
Dave: There is always a FA or two out there that can help out with the rotation. Like Benny said if they make the trade with Minny, Mets will still have Pelfrey. And who is to say that if Pedro has a very good year that he won’t come back? My gut tells me that Pedro feels he owes the Mets something and would re-sign if he has a good year.
SS: I think there is a very good chance the Mets go into the season with just two catchers. Between Schneider and Shrek the Mets should be able to have the full season caught. And if there is an injury there is usually a scrap heap kinda guy out there. Plus I don’t think the bench has room for back up catcher right now.
Slopy – “Heilmann is hit and cold.” While I realize this is a typo let’s hope he is better than this! LOL
Omar – I agree that trading Milledge was a mistake, still “If the Giants could be patient with their QB, then why in hell couldn’t the Mets show patience with a prospect, like they did before Minaya came on board?” My question to you would be this – Aside from Reyes and Wright what prospects were the Mets patient with? Phillips was worse than Omar in this regard. Think Kazmir.
Steve (the Original) – Thanks for the reply. I agree that they will run with the two catchers at the major league level. I was just wondering who they had at AAA or below since those that played there last year are gone. Thanks again.
dave: You recall Oh so wrong. The Giants had a winning record when Warner was QB. They lost all their games with Eli until the last game. I live G-Men more than Mets.
As for LM, how could he ever prove himself. Baseball my friend is a long haul game, not one game or ten games or 50 games. You need a season to show how you adjust, how you adjust when the pitchers readjust to you. And Milz was improving as evidenced by the fact that despite all your complaints about him he hit the same as Church who is 6-7 years older and fully mature. When did Milz have the job…. He wasn’t given the chance that pre-Omar GMs gave to kids. If Omar was GM i 84 Gooden would have been in AA vice being rook of the year. He’s have found Frank Lary to make a comeback.
They stayed with Pelfrey less than half a year. They had big lead and had every reaso to keep him in rotatiomn and when was Pelf hurt anyway?? Humber had TJ but not Pelf.
Milz never played a good corner because the Mets in all their mismanagement kept him (and Gomez for that matter) in CF despite the fact they knew neither would player CF for the Mets. Gomez played a lousy corner also but recovered because of his awesome speed.
You do agree it was a lousy trade and that is the most important thing!!!
As sloppy says go Giants!!!!
clm:
Don’t blame Phillips for a trade he NEVER MADE. Duquette traded Kazmir, not Stevey:
As for your item to me. Phillips traded kids away for:
Piazza
Hampton
Leiter
Alomar
All but Alomar were winners that brought us to WS. The Alomar trade was raved about when made, and none of the guys he dumpred made it big any way.
He made bad trades at deadline esp getting rid of Mota for Bordick but that one was raved about as well at the time. Nobody has raved about a Minaya trade since they got Loduca and Delgado. and maybe dumping Benson, but even that weas made because the Coupon family didn’t like Ms Claus, not for any baseball reason. So ur 2nd or 3rd starter is an accident.
When Omar was in a race last year and his bullpen was on death’s door he did nothing. And with this prospect he didn’t get talent, he got avg. Well you can let your kids be average. And Phillips gave Payton every chance, he gave Abgayani more chances than he deserved, he gave Timo long chances.
Omar,
I just checked the last season with Kurt – the Gints went 4-12, he had more ints than tds.
As for your argument that Milz did not get the time necessary – see my comments regarding CarGo who did better at least in the field than your boy LM with less experience. Not saying everything is equal everyone has a different rate at which they get better or worse. Just saying here is a kid who had arguably more success in the same environment with less experience under his belt.
CarGo – in my opinion Carlos played a decent OF ( both corners and CF ). He did not get a late jump on the ball. After initial issues he settled down and played well in the field. LM never looked comfortable in the field. I guess we have different opinions on LM’s effectiveness.
As for Pelf, he had surgery not sure what kind but he did just come back from an injury. I do not recall anyone here last year yelling at everyone that Pelf needed more time that we needed to chill and let him learn while we lost.
dave: They were in the race when they brought in Maning to start. Warner did not start the second half or more that year.
All I can say about Gomz, who reall is my “boy” is that if you think he didn’t get bad jumpd then I think you weren’t watching closely.
As for Pelf I can’t find record of him on DL and we weren’t long when they sent him down.
And what was excuse for sitting Gotay…. 300 plus not good enough either? Oh they didn’t like the D even tho they were raving about his improvement before gimpy was brought on board.
dave: if the comparison I gave is incorrect, it is only in the sense that it is oh so much easier to bring along a kid in an offense so “power packed” like ours was last year then it is to insert a rookie QB into the starting lineup in the NFL anywhere but especially in New York and then have him battered by the press for years and still stick by him. The Met FO can’t stand the heat over a kid giving high fives after his first HR. The Met FO absolutely is pathetic. They don’t like High fives, they don’t like a sexy Ms Santa, they don’t like a fiery catcher, but they have no problewm or concern about one of the greatest collpases in ML history.
If you don’t think it would have been easier for the Giant organization to get a vet and say Eli ain’t ready for a few years then well…. there ain’t nothing to say.
And if you think Ryan Church is the answer then why oh why couldn’t he get 500 ABS for the Nats last year? Did they object to his blooming stardom? Fo the same reason Endy will never get 500 ABs. He ain’t good enough to play every day.
To CLM: I hope every Met is great, even guys I know won’t ever be, like Church. But unlike too many Met fans, I won’t boo him when I’m at a game because he got my jersey on, except I won’t be wearing his number like curse boy will.
Milledge was NEVER given the job, not for one second, I think that has to be clear to everyone.
There was always Cliff Floyd or Shawn Green or some other dude who was “nice in the clubhouse” and “was totally good like ten years ago” dangling over his head and…
Damn if Wilomar didn’t drop that sword every time.
And now we got… a guy who is at his talent ceiling basically equal from one side of the plate to Milledge’s talent basement and from the other side, possibly less of a hitter than Brian “The Animal” Schneider.
Good Lord.
These “nice guys” and these “proven veterans” and my “need to go throw up”.
I tell you what, Sloppy, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and bet on Church vs. Milledge for 2008? I’ll bet you a Junior’s Cheesecake that Church posts a higher OPS (OBP + SLG) than Milledge in 2008. Winner pays in October.
Hey curse boy, You gonna send me my winnings over the net? What’s the sense of betting someone I’ll never meet?
Omar – You’re right, messed that one up but my point was that Omar is no worse than Phillips or Duquette when it comes to trading prospects.
On everything else we are agreed!!!
Ok, CLM, they were bad with kids as well, but why? The Yanks, bigget spenders of all and the BoSox second biggest penders have allowed kids the chance to play and blossom and they have at least as much pressure,if not more to win then the Mets do.
And I wouldn’t mind trading the kids if you were bundling for real talent, but when you have limited goodies on the farm and you trade for at best average talent, you are doing a bad thing. Minaya could have gotten an outfielder as good as Church via FA for not so much money or for a salary dump as he got Green.
Guys like Ayala make an almost valid point about why not trade Miledge when you think you got better kids coming? The failue there is then why trade one of them for a journeyman at the same position? And why didn’t you trade any of them last July when your pen was shot, your starters couldn’t go deep. When we really needed help we didn’t get it. We can fight all we want about whether Church or Milledge is better but when push comes to shove, where they’d bat wouldn’t have much differene, not nearly as much as a decent set up man would have made the last 2 months last year.
In the unlikely event I lose this bet, I’d be happy to utilize the wonders of the Internet to deliver a delicious Junior’s Cheesecake right to your front doorstep. We’ll never have to meet. But you get a free cheesecake if you’re right about this.
Church vs. Milledge in OPS for 2008. One cheesecake from Junior’s.
Are you in or not?
Omar – you aren’t getting me here. I am saying that I agree with you on those things. My only disagreement was when you said “If the Giants could be patient with their QB, then why in hell couldn’t the Mets show patience with a prospect, like they did before Minaya came on board?â€
And my only point to that was what GM have the Mets had that held on to prospects before Omar?
I am not arguing the point that he has made some bad trades, I am not arguing that he has not gotten value for Milledge. Only saying that Duquette, Steve Phillips, and even Cashen, were no more patient with the “kids”
If we still had Milledge we could use him, or have him involved in the Santana talks. Personally I thought the kid got a bad wrap. Hell, he’s young and immature? Who isn’t at that age?
whatever you say curse boy. By the way did you get your Church jersey yet? Maybe I’ll send you one of those if they ever make any. By the way you better send me my cheesecake from the cheesecake factory. I don’t know what Junior’s is. It sounds like a second rate hamburger joint.
PS: Will Church make the All Star team this year? Will he get 500 ABs to show he’s an everyday player? Will he wear Bobby Bonilla earplugs to drown out the boos if he gets off to a bad start? Can he handle pressure in the big apple? Can he survive the cultural diversity of NYC which he had a hard time with in DC? Will the Jewish community give him a chance, kind of odd an anti Semite replacing Green isn’t it? Did the community accept his apology? Will he be the home grown version of John Rocker or will he be left alone?Kind of odd Omar trying to get a proven vet with nothing but question marks and a bunch of doubles in a cavernous outfield, don’t you think? Character… You guys pan Milledge’s acrion and ignore Church’s. Why did DC give Church away (according to you) when they usually holds team’s hostage for any talent they have like they supposedly did last summer?
Junior’s is headquarted in Brooklyn and, arguably, is the best cheesecake in the world.
Will Church make the all-star team? I don’t know, but I’d guess he’s got a better shot at doing so than Milledge.
Will Church’s anti-Semitism play in NY? What he allegedly said—that he was told by the team chaplain that his Jewish girlfriend wouldn’t make it to heaven because she didn’t believe in Christ—is a very popular belief in this country, particularly for those living outside of big cities. I think the idea that he shared this conversation with the media makes him more ignorant than consciously anti-Semitic.
I don’t think Church is “nothing but question marks.” Wright and Beltran were the only Mets to collect more extrabase hits than Church last year.
In terms of their respective off-the-field scandals, I think Milledge’s is far worse. In addition to those ugly statutory rape allegations from high school, you now have a rap album that is, at least in part, devoted to the wonders to the fellatio. Not exactly the kind of thing you want to be promoting all the wives and kids at the ballpark.
Why did the Nats trade Church? For one thing, Bowden has always loved Milledge, even from his Cincy days. Church is soon to be arbitration-eligible, which is more of a consideration for a team like Washington. Beyond that, they probably believe Milledge will be the better player down the road.
Are you in or out on the cheesecake bet?
You have an excuse for everything about Church. If he made a rap album it would be excusable as part of his culture and his ignorance of the greater good of Wilpon society.
PS: The noble Wilpon’s knew of his HS problems, decided they were forgiveable or innaccurate but now that he’s not wanted in Wilpon heaven he’s an evil kid. BS….
The real reason we got Church is because the Nats couldn’t believe all they had to give up for a top prospect was a part time outfielder and a quickly deteriorating Catcher. When they stopped laughing they signed on the dotted line.
They didn’t even have to touch the only part of their team with talent, the bullpen, which, curse boy, is the part of the team this team needed the most help . I guess its ok to be bad if you are bad in the way that doesn’t bother the Wilpons. But don’t do rap and don’t have a sexy wife dress sexy at a Christmas party. No wonder we are and will always be the loser in the New York baseball market.
And its ok to do steroids because Omar wants to give you a second chance like Schoen and Mota? We are selective do gooders in Queens. What crap…... You defend Church more than Roger Clemens defends himself.
Omar:
I cannot find a record of Pelf being injured also. I looked. I remember last year they shut him and Humber down in the AFL after short stints because of soreness and believed the reason was both had come off injuries and they wanted to protect them. Perhaps I was mistaken.
As for Gomez/Milledge, I bring Carlos up as a simple comparison of young OF’s and they way both handled their time in the bigs. I think Gomez was relatively more successful and did not generate the bad feelings that Milledge did in his short time here.
As for Gotay – I like him too and think he can be a good player. I think he made Omar nervous for a team going into the post season so they went and got Castillo who played a better 2b and settled the #2 slot. I think Castillo makes them better at the expense of allowing a promising young player to develop.
Sloppy:
I don’t think Church is the answer. I stand on record as saying I do not like the trade of LM. I give Omar the benefit of the doubt on this, but disagree with him and think we would be better if we filled RF and C a different way.
As for the Gints and QB. To me we went and paid a lot for the starting QB and they were willing to deal with the growing pains. For a QB you have to give several years up to let them develop. As in baseball or any sport the player needs playing time. My original point was that in baseball you have more options to give the players experience. You do not have to let them do it at the major league level.
With LM i feel that he still should be in the minors learning game situations and how to actually play OF before he gets a shot at the majors. I do not feel he has good basics. In contrast to Gomez who plays a better OF and whose fundamentals in that area seem better. Gomez is less developed at the plate but seemed to be able to slap the ball around a bit and get on base which hid his issues at the plate. That said Gomez should start in AAA and learn how to hit the pitching there.
At this point I don’t care about Lastings. For better or worse he is no longer on the team. As I said before I think his emotional make up will interfere with his physical ability to play the game. I know many here disagree with me, but I have moved on with him. I wish he were still here as he can help this team but he is not.
Go Mets.
dave: You have good points about Gomez but I remember when he hit HR Randolph yelling at him about his attitude celebrating. It seemed to me that no kid on Mets could express joy.
I remember as well them shutting Pelfrey down in arizona but he never had TJ like Humber did.
I see we picked up another bum for the pen. I guess we have our 2008 Mota or Sele now! Rincon. WOW!!!
These moves would be ok if they were back up to big moves, but they are the only moves this winter. My cuz has a better chance of helping this club then Rincon does and he hasn’t pitched in two years.
If they pick pick up bum starters like Odalis and Colon, and use them instead of kids I think I’ll give up on the season early and save my aggravation…..... I think we’re folowing our history of a little peak and a deep valley.
I’m defending Church because I see virtually no merit to your criticisms of him. He’s not the greatest thing since sliced bread—but nor is he the scrub you’re making him out to be.
Do you really believe Milledge is still a top prospect and that Omar could have gotten more than Church and Schneider? I think his value was dropping and Omar moved him before it hit rock bottom.
But if you really feel this way, why not cut out the Clemens comparisons and put your money where your mouth is: Bet me a cheesecake on Church vs. Milledge in 2008.
Church has a better chance of making the All-Star team than Milledge? A platoon-hitter for the Nationals?
Oh man.
Oh man, good to see the Bizarro Superman posting here.
Bizarro Superman, ladies and gentlemen. Good Lord.
Hey, Mike—Do you like cheesecake?
There are two problems with your proposition, Benny.
a.) The cheesecake in LA where I live sucks and so is not worth betting.
b.) As you are dealing in Bizarro-speak, I have no idea what the opposite of cheesecake is so that I can not-send not-cheesecake to the Bizarro Superman.
Point is… saying that a guy who hit his ceiling as a platoonist for the Expos is worth more than a five-tool prospect whose development was held back by the shambling likes of Shawn Green and Cliff Floyd is… its so out of the realm of reality that you could only be saying it to pick an internet fight.
Yes, there is a slight chance that Milledge could go down to a freak injury or something and Church could collect more stats next year.
Yes, if Milledge is at his floor and Church is at his ceiling in 2008, his numbers might look slightly better, in that limited timeframe.
But it wouldn’t mean a thing.
It wouldn’t make trading your best positional prospect for a platoon rightfielder and a no-hit catcher a sane move, ever, no way, no how… even if you hate that your best positional prospect pulls in negative coverage in The Post because he is young, black and enthusiastic about the game.
It wouldn’t mean a thing.
Mike—They have this thing called the Internet that allows us to enjoy delicious Junior’s Cheesecake shipped anywhere in the country from good old Brooklyn.
Now, do you want to back up your convictions and make the bet—or would you just prefer to continue with the empty name-calling?
I’ll await your response.
Ayala:
If, the Mets traded Milledge on 31 July because he wasn’t ready for the big time, everyone who played OF in the system was hurt and you really thought RF was going to put you over the top for that season and this guy was enough to do it, then it would have been a fine trade, but that’s not the case. Last 31 July we needed a stady arm in the pen to put us over the top and Omar didn’t want to give up a prospect. Starting a season and going after a 29 year old journeyman who has never been good enoguh to play full time for a 23 year kid with enthusiasm and potential and with 2 other outfielders sitting behind him if he failed and a catcher who has no value on the market is just poor dealing. If, as it is written, that Minaya has been trying to get an ace, then he should have kept every kid so that he would have as much as possible to bargain with. One never knows what the other team might settle for. But if you don’t have a piece you ain’t dealing it are you? He could have made this trade with DC at any time.
Now you may not like any point that criticizes this trade but that’s life….. because i think you haven’t made any point to justify this trade.
I’m justifying this trade by saying Church will be the better player in 2008—and I’m willing to bet a delicious Junior’s Cheesecake to support this apparently unpopular opinion.
If you feel this was such a lousy trade, I can’t understand why you’re not taking me up on this bet. I mean, if Milledge is the real deal—and Church is as bad as you say he is—you have nothing to lose, right?
I will say this for you curse boy. At least you just admitted you have no justification for this trade other than your optimistic dreams, which is is ok by me. Betting an internet debater is as dumb as the trade was bad. Plus, why would I root against someone wearing a Met shirt? As I said too many times, I hope Church wins the Triple Crown, even though even you know he won’t. Now, wake us up when your man Minaya does something to excite the fan base. I am off the bad trade forever, I hope!
Oh—I’m sorry—I didn’t realize you’ve been rooting for Church for the past two months. I had the mistaken impression that you were calling him a scrub, a journeyman and a platoon player given up on by the hapless Nationals. My bad.
I think I’m offering you the ultimate justification: Rather than blathering on about which one is better, I’m willing to allow Church’s bat do the talking for me.
I can’t understand why you’re so afraid of allowing Milledge’s bat do the talking for you.
Surely, if it’s a bad deal you’ll win the bet easily, right?
Unlike you curse boy I root for all the guys on my team. I’m sure you didn’t root for Newhan or Mota or Lawrence when they were in the game because they weren’t “high quality” players like you believe Church to be. Just because I dislike a trade and don’t give much credit to the abilities of a guy, doesn’t have anything to do with wanting him to succeed. Is that a concept too deep for a curse boy to comprehend?
Are you in or out on the bet, Sloppy?