Seeking Westchester feedback …
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- December
- 17
If you’re from Westchester, I’d like to talk with you for a story for the paper on the Mets’ raising their ticket prices, and in some cases, as much as 20 percent. Please email me at jdelcos@lohud.com with your contact info. Or leave a statement. I would need your full name and town.
If you’re not from Westchester, please post on the blog.
This being the last year for Shea, the place will be sold out most every night. It was a foregone conclusion they would be raised. Of course, the team hasn’t officially announced it yet. After a fan contacted a media outlet is when the story broke.
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on Monday, December 17th, 2007 at 10:26 am by John Delcos.
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I would bet that they are raised again for 09.
“Easier” for fans to swallow a 20% per yr raise for 2 yrs than 40% in one yr.
Citifield will not be a cheap place to visit.
Hope everyone enjoys the concession stands b/c the team has a good chance of being on the down cycle I have mentioned before.
I am a full season ticket holder and my prices went up last year as well. I think it’s outrageous that the team has the gall to raise prices—I mean, I know about supply & demand all that old fashioned business mumbo jumbo, but it was pretty tasteless to do it after the worst collapse in baseball history AND the last year of Shea being opened. I haven’t gotten my invoice yet but I expect that season tickets will go up but not by 20%. I still think its hogwash though.
One more thing – JD, I think it’s also optimistic that you expect every game to be near sold out this year. I expect the standard games to be sold out – Opening Day, Subway Series, last game at Shea. But the others? Fans—esp most Mets fans—are opportunistic. Shea does not provide that many nostalgic memories, like the “mystique” and “aura” of the stadium in Bronx where you WILL see games being sold out nightly, and plus it’s not exactly an enjouyable place to watch a game. I had a better time reselling my tix last year b/c everyone thought they had the potential to watch a championship team. This year, I will be lucky to sell a game against the Braves.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-metstickets&prov=ap&type=lgns
20% on average I guess. This is why we don’t want them to spend exorbitantly, but it’s not like I go to many games anyway.
My wife, father and I were planning on taking my 4 month old to his first Mets game this season before they knock down Shea.
Now I’m not so sure.
I suspect the Westchester reaction will be something like:
“I’m already having enough trouble making ends meet, what with my investment banking bonus this year likely to be a good million dollars less than last year, and the balloon payment coming due on my Jaguar. And now this!” ;-)
I honestly don’t see what the big deal is about rushing out to see “one last game at Shea”. That Stadium is a hole, and should have been torn down years ago.
It’s bad enough that the prices have been raised 20%, but that’s not the main issue. The issue, is the fact that all partial plan holders (Saturday, Sunday, Weekday etc) haven’t yet been told whether or not we’ll receive priority for those packages in Citi Field. First, the Mets stated that continuing season ticket holders in both 2007 and 2008 would have priority in Citi Field. Last year, they stated that continuing season ticket holders in 2008 would have priority. This year, they’ve changed their line to say that “full season ticket holders will have priority in purchasing full season tickets for Citi Field, before the Mets decide what to do with the rest of the ticket inventory.” It’s pretty apparent that this is just a scare tactic, and I’m fairly certain that partial plan holders will be offered an opportunity to purchase plans in Citi Field, but I’m having a hard time deciding on whether or not to cough up $1,335 (up from $1,038 last year) for my Saturday plan that I’ve held for 8 years. If I’m wrong, and the Mets don’t offer me an option to buy tickets in Citi Field, I’m screwed.
I don’t make many games at Shea because my job conflicts with many of them and I figure since I have the TV and cable, why not watch at home? But an average of 20% is pretty shocking. But the Mets do have a point. They are the lowest ticket prices of the nine area sports teams.
Have the Yankees announced their prices yet? Is there an average available for what other teams are doing?
We only have ourselves to blame.
Major sports sure seem to try their hardest to kill the golden goose (strikes, lockouts, steroids, crooked refs, game times predicated by TV, championship games finishing after midnight, ticket prices, ticket licenses, premium networks, tiered pricing, parking licenses, concession ripoffs etc etc)
And yet, we all just keep coming back for more. I’m sure John will find a few good storylines (why Westchester only – have we already concluded the rest of us can’t afford it??) about a few who won’t renew do this outrageous increase after the mother of all collapses——but will it really make any difference ? The tickets will sell and like lemmings we’ll keep on paying and putting up with all the nonsense.
And it will be worse with the new stadium. Fewer seats, higher prices and everyone trying to get tickets so they can see the new field in person.
Danny A – I think that they need to figure out what the deal is going to be with the mini-plan and weekend plan holders for the new stadium, which is why it’s being held up. For now, I think they are trying to lock in the season plan holders $$. I’m not condoning it – it makes sense from a business perspective.
It definitely makes sense business-wise, but I’d just like to know sooner rather than later about my Citi Field options. It’s a scare tactic, and they’re trying to see how many partial plan holders get frightened and switch to full season plans. But I simply can’t imagine the Mets freezing out people who have been loyal plan holders for years. They’ll want to have as many seats bought as possible before they go on sale to the general public, so it makes tons of sense for them to offer a chance for plan ticket holders to buy packages in Citi Field. The less seats there are to begin with, the more they can charge for individual tickets.
Good timing by the Mets in announcing 20% on average ticket price hike:
1. 3 days after Mitchell Report is released.
2. Less than one week after Haren is traded to Arizona.
3. About 2 weeks after Detroit acquires both Cabrera and Willis (while Mets have taken no steps to better a team that sunk like an anchor at season’s end last year).
Does the Mets organization care as little about its fans and their reaction as it appears; or worse, yet, is this just public relations stupidity and more of the same inept organizational decision-making that has made it so frustrating over the years to be a Mets fan?
Dan, The mets statement that they are the lowest priced professional team is a fraud. In all cities baseball is the lowest price because it has so many games, and except for football, much bigger stadiums. The only fair comparison the Mets can make is to the Yankees, and the Yankees make the playoffs every year and the Mets miss the playoffs most every year, so they should be cheaper since the Mets usually provide a crappier product.
Screw the Wilpons, You all come out to Pittsburgh for a Mets game. The place is beautiful, the food is really good with scores of alternatives, the beer is cheaper and seats behind home plate in the lower deck are only 27 bucks. It’ll be cheaper to come to Pittsburgh go to the whole series and stay in a hotel than to go to see three games in Shea. And the new casino will be only blocks away. You can park downtown for 5 bucks and walk over the Roberto Clemente Bridge to come to the park. Lots of Met fans there every year, even when we suck like we’ll probably do in 2008. If you don’t want to travel go to Brooklyn and see the Cyclones. The Wilpons like to put a winner there since the old man thinks the Dodgers are back in Brooklyn.
20% increase, the Wilpons must think they are selling oil.
Danny A- that is also VERY True. I have several friends who saw the success I had at dumping my seasons last year and now want to get tickets in the “Coop” box LOL – as my box in mezzanine has been so aptly named. Unfortunately, I think with the new stadium, I’ll be able to get “lower” Upper deck box—i’ll push for behind Home plate though
Gee, I thought that The Journal News also served Rockland County and “The Lower Hudson Region”? I must be mistaken. As for the rise in the ticket prices, I think that the Wilpons are getting confused in believing that they should be getting Forest Hill prices for their events due the proximity.
The demand for Mets tickets has been rising in recent years. Despite the terribly disappointing ending to the season the Mets are still regarded as a contender. They would be foolish to leave money on the table by not raising ticket prices. There are only so many good seats at Shea Stadium. When demand exceeds supply business owners do the sensible thing and raise prices until demand at the new higher price is equal to the supply.
You will ofter hear fans and reporters and broadcasters attribute changes in ticket prices to changes in player’s salaries. They don’t have that kind of direct relationship. Ticket prices are determined by an analysis of what will maximize ticket revenues. Charge to much and people stay away and you sell fewer tickets. Charge too little and you sell plenty of tickets but don’t get as much for each one. Setting prices is about finding the optimal solution to that problem.
Players salaries are determined on the free agent market in an auction like scenario. They are not directly related to ticket prices.
One more thing. Based on population and incomes in the New York metropolitan area and also on the popularity of the sport of baseball in the the New York metro area there could be as many as six viable major league franchises. There are still more fans per team in NY than in any other city. Really there should be at least 2 more teams in NYC. Whenever they talk of expansion and where to put a team I laugh about the duopoly of the Mets and Yankees. In a pure businees sense NYC is the best place for an expansion or moving franchise. If that happened then you would see ticket prices start to fall a bit.
I see the Mets have released some Upper Reserved tickets for sale today for the Holidays… There are some $5 and $10 games…
In addition, they are selling Holiday 5 Packs, like last season for Upper Reserved seats. However, it bothers me that one of their packs is the ‘Team to Beat’ Pack… Makes me think they believe that collapse is just one big joke…
Ahh. Who cares about Rockland? Westchester is the place to be :)
I don’t get to Shea that much, I seem to get busy in the summer which is odd.
However, I will miss Shea. Regardless of what you think of the place it has been the only home for the Mets since they were born. The new place looks pretty ( in the artist renditions ), but Shea is Shea.
As for the price, I agree with everyone here. How do you disappoint your organization and your fans on the scale that happened this past year? This team is immortalized as the butt of the joke for the worst collapse in MLB history. And then you jack up the price.
If the Mets’ kingdom is sane they will stay away causing the Wilpons to do an Apple and give a rebate and an appology.
Dave
Taylor –
Sounds like you took Eco 101…
This kind of stuff doesn’t bother me, because it’s just not worth getting worked up over. Whether we like it or not, Sport is someone’s business.
This will definitely affect me for the next 2 years, but I’ll still try to make as many of the cheaper games from the upper deck as I can. I actually like sitting upstairs, you can see everything.
As the Mets establish themselves more and once they move into CitiField you’ll see more and more businesses scooping up the prime real estate like they do in Yankee Stadium. Heck, it could be even worse, since I would rather travel out to Flushing than the Bronx (personally).
Lastly, there are plenty of opportunities to Show up at Shea if you’re in a lower tax bracket. As mentioned above, there are opportunities to see a game for 5 bucks. That’s a pretty good deal. Sure, you may not see a great game, but you’re likely to catch a victory (unless Brian Lawrence is starting), so the Mets do provide some ways for a family to get out to a ballgame.
But I know what’s to follow. I’ll be called a front office sympathizer and a Mets shill. All I really think I am is a realist.
And Sloppy, I will definitely be visiting Pittsburgh in the near future to get to a game. That stadium looks gorgeous on TV. I’ve been to Camden, the new Phillies park, Fenway, Comerica, and obviously the NY parks and Pittsburgh’s new stadium looks like it beats them all in terms of the view it provides.
Yes Dave, and 201, 202, 203 and about 8 others. It was my major. I hope you don’t mean to suggest that these points aren’t valid because they are from basic economic principles.
My statement is as follows:
I am growing increasingly concerned about the shortage of quality Boar’s Head cold cuts in my area.
America is a great place ain’t it fellas? Capitalism strikes again…thats all this is. But you’re all patriots right? It’s the american way after all…
How about this everyone, they really raised the ticket prices much more than the reported 20%. They raised the highest attended platinum, gold and silver games by whopping amounts, and they raised the non-highly attended bronze and silver by only $ 5. Here is the breakdown for my loge boxes :
Platinum was $ 82 now $ 117- $ 35 increase
Gold was $ 72 now $ 97- $ 25 increase
Silver was $ 67 now $ 87- $ 25 increase
Bronze was $ 62 now $ 67 -$ 5 increase
Value was $ 52 now $ 57 -$ 5 increase
Also, don’t forget this team decreased their payroll by $ 20 million after getting rid of Glavine, Green and Mota and did not replace them with a dime of salary.
Todd, don’t be fooled by the nonsense a lot of other people post. Yes, they “lost” a lot of salary by cutting ties with Glavine, Green, Mota, and LoDuca, however, do not forget the overall context.
Players like Wright, Reyes, and Beltran are all due contracted raises this year… this is true for many players under long term deals. They also resigned Castillo. Then there are guys who they gave/ will give raises through one year deals to avoid arbitration. They also brought in Schneider, Church, and some pitchers. Add all of this up (as insignificant you may think these things may be) and the Mets payroll has actually INCREASE by about a million this offseason. And it’s not even Jan 1. I would bet if they don’t land Santana they’ll sign a free agent pitcher or two.
Lastly, are we really that upset about them losing Glavine, Green, LoDuca, and Mota? Personally, I think they all stunk last year. The only one of that whole group who I they don’t have an adequate replacement for is Glavine. Since he wasn’t all that great last year, signing a Lohse, Silva, or Livan to eat some innings will replace Glavine’s production. One could even argue that Pedro replaces Glavine. While he may not give you the quantity of Glavine’s innings, I would bet Pedro’s innings will be of a higher quality.
Didn’t mean to jump all over you Todd, but this is a misconception I see all over the net. The Mets payroll has ALREADY increased since the end of last season, even with them losing the aforementioned players and not making any significant moves.
One more general statement. Can we please get over the collapse already. Yes, it stunk, but we’re starting to sound like Boston fans pre-2004. The team was still highly competitive all season, we have 3 young, perennial All Stars (Wright, Reyes, and Beltran), we get to watch one of the best pitchers ever in the twilight of his career surgically carve up hitters with considerably less stuff than he once had, we have two young, on the rise pitchers who had breakout seasons last year, and unless we ship them out for Johan, we have some nice young players in the minors (yes, I like our prospects even if other teams don’t… doesn’t mean I expect them to be All Stars, but they should contribute on the MLB level.)
Am I an optimist? Of course, I won’t deny it, but the persistent grumbling and negative attitude regarding this team was understandable at first, then it turned troubling, and now it’s downright nauseating. There is only one fan base who can truly have no gripes with their front office/ballclub… and those are Red Sox fans. It really is incredible how fast this fan base has become spoiled by success. One NLCS berth is all it took. No one can win it all every year, not even the Yankees. If winning the WS is all that will satiate this fan base then I will promise you that you’ll be miserable at season’s end more times than not.
Ok, enough ranting. Didn’t want to sound as preachy as this does upon reviewing it, but come on people, I know this team has it’s flaws, but there is a lot to be happy about as well. I also don’t want to tell anyone what kind of a fan they should be, but I suppose this is a call for reasonableness more than anything.
Keith,
That is the biggest bunch of crap I ever heard. Every single team in baseball has increases in salaries for their players that is just the natural raising of baseball salaries. Unless, they lose players every team in baseball has their total team salary go up. From them to charge a whopping 20% increase, which really is more like 40% for the better Platinum, Gold and Silver games is outrageous without getting any new players, and not raising the payroll.
By the way, this is more like seat licensing. They know people have to keep their season seats in 2008 to get new seats in Citi Field so they raised everyone bill by thousands of dollars to be, in effect, a seat licensing fee.
dave: The Mets played in the Polo Grounds for 2 years.
keith: why would anyone call you all those bad names? PNC park is about perfect. Except for the team. The worst part is that the team makes a profit every year losing! Mark Cuban tried to buy it, but the owners wouldn’t sell. People in Western PA really only care about the Steelers anyway. If the Pirates lose they don’t care, they will go to the games anyway because the price isn’t high, the food is good, and the people love Fireworks nights and bobblehead nights.
They seem to be starting to get into Pitt basketball. The area is ticked off that Pitt plays Duke on Thursday in MSG the same time the Steelers are playing.
Keith,
One other thing I forgot. If you think anyone beat it players, fans or media are going to forget the biggest collapse in baseball history in a few months you have totally lost it. Let me remind you this is not like losing a seventh game to St. Louis in 2006. Yes, that was disappointing and frustrating since you knew the Mets were a better team, but that happens. Better teams lose to lesser teams in short series.
This collapse is one for the ages. 40 years from now teams will still be compared to the 2007 Mets collapse. Just like 45 years later the 1962 are the measuring stick for futility in a full season with 120 losses, people will compare the Mets collapse to other teams. Look how we still rememember the 1964 Phillies and the 1978 Red Sox. The 2007 Mets are now in the worst part of baseball history. It is not going away soon. If you keep being in denial over it you are kidding yourself. Deal with it. You don’t move on from a loss like that by just saying let’s move on. You do it by changing some players, and trying to get some new blood on the field, not like idiot Mets management did by bringing back the same team.
Sloppy, it’s a shame the Pirates stink. They’re a franchise with a rich history and I was raised on those Braves-Pirates NLCS clashes. They played some great series. I could see them getting into Pitt basketball since they don’t really have a pro team (plus the college game is better anyway). What about hockey? The Penguins have had some great teams with some all time players come through that town. I was shocked they went bankrupt.
Todd, fine, whatever you say. However, your statement was misleading. Another misleading statement is that they haven’t added players. LoDuca, Green, and Mota have been replaced by young, cheaper, and better alternatives (ok, we’re unclear who replaced Mota, but Steven Register can’t be much worse than Mota.) Just because they didn’t blow the piggy bank on Barrett, Rowand, and Vizcaino, while handcuffing themselves to some terrible long term deals (and likely giving up draft choices in the first two situations) doesn’t mean the players replacing the departed aren’t good ballplayers.
Todd, I’m not in denial about it, but I’m not going to wallow in it. It happened and it’s over. Me crying about it isn’t going to change anything. They blew it. I’m over it. I’m ready to root for this team in 2008.
Let’s say for argument’s sake that you’re right though. The Mets needed to “shake things up” or “make a splash.” How exactly did you expect them to accomplish this?
The lineup was all but set for next year save for RF, 2B, and C. RF and C were filled with new blood, and they resigned Castillo, who busted his butt down the stretch last year.
The rotation was pretty much set except for one rotation spot. Minaya is working on that now.
The bullpen’s top 4 pitchers are set. The rest will shake out in spring training… the same way as it will for almost every other team in baseball.
So what did you want them to do? Deal off guys like Delgado? The reason why this team collapsed and missed the playoffs is because a lot of players had down years or played like garbage down the stretch last year. Everyone cried about trading Milledge because we didn’t “sell high.” Well, dealing off guys like Delgado is a textbook example of selling low. The bottom line is all these guys are more valuable to us than to other teams. If you were to deal them, we wouldn’t get much back and then you would be guaranteed a 3rd place finish. Basically, the best shot this team has at winning in 2008 is with the same group of chokers that finished 2007.
I hate the expressions “shake things up” and “make a splash.” If you feel you have the right team in place then you roll with your guys. Billy Beane did this every year and the A’s would storm back and win the West. The Yanks back in the 90s dropped an ALDS series to the Mariners after being up 2-0 and wound up winning multiple World Series in the subsequent years. Heck, they brought back most of the same team after blowing a 3-0 lead in the ALCS in 2004.
For once I would like to see some actual ideas on how this team should have been “shook up” rather than blanket statements like “they can’t just bring back the same group of chokers.” The fact is we were going to be stuck with this team in 2008 no matter what because of the contract situations and the quicker everyone gets used to this idea the better.
Personally, if it was me. I would have traded Beltran for some younger pitcher say to a team like the Giants. If you could have gotten say Lincecum and/or Matt Cain for Beltran which I definitely think SF would have done, because they were thinking of trading Lincecum for Rios. Then I would have traded Linecum and some of my OF prospects to Minnesota for Santana, and then signed Andruw Jones or Rowand for CF. I would much rather have had Andruw Jones and Santana rather than just Beltran. Admittedly, not perfect but at least you shake up the core of the team. This is something the Mets would never do, because Jonew would have got $ 18 million plus Santan $ 25 million less Beltran’s $ 18 million for a net gain of $ 25 million. You see the Mets can charge outrageous prices, but they cannot spend more money.
Also, just to throw out another thing that I do not like as much, but it would have shaken up the core, too. They could have signed Eckstein for SS and traded Reyes for Santana. I admit, that I hate giving up Reyes, but I would still rather have Santana and Eckstein rather than the exciting, but not clutch player Reyes.
You see, this is the type of thing I mean by shaking up the core after the epic collapse. Keeping the same team together after that is a recipe for disaster.
Dave – Apparently John shares your feelings about Rockland. = ) . He should check his paper for Rockland circulation numbers. He might the few of us up here in the sticks that actually know how to read purchase it as “Our” local newspaper. Silly us! = )
For all of its shortcomings and now vastly outdated design, I will miss Shea when it is gone because I grew up watching the Mets there. The cost to go to a ballgame now with your family is almost on par with taking them to a show, or, even, a percentage of taking them away for a weekend if you wrap in the parking, concessions, etc… It is too bad that days of just picking up for the average family and taking the kids down to a ballgame on a sunny spring or summer day are fastly disappearing. Baseball has gone from “America’s Game” to Middle class and above’s game. The increase in price, as was mentioned by some others is just to cushion for the future increases involved with the new stadium. I ask, however, one simple question. “Why do the Mets want you to pay now for a stadium you will not be able to appreciate until next year?” The almighty dollar continues to turn sports into more of a corporate game than the one that is played on the field.
It’s really unfair to say the Mets won’t spend money. They have the third highest payroll in baseball and since 2004 they’ve shelled out cash when they’ve felt the players on the market were deserving of their salaries. Thus far I would say Beltran, Pedro, and Wagner have come as advertised. Rowand is not worth the salary he received, not even close. Neither is Torii Hunter. Especially if they would be coming here to play RF.
Your first scenario is interesting, however farfetched. Stuff like that rarely happens. There is also a chance the Mets get Johan anyway, so they would have Beltran and Johan, which I think is better than Jones and Johan.
I’ll be blunt here, I hate your second scenario. Eckstein is not a good SS. He’s not. Trading Reyes would be worse than trading Kazmir was. You just don’t trade 24 year old All Star short stops who double as your leadoff hitter. Especially not for a pitcher. I don’t care who that pitcher is.
We obviously are looking at this from different angles, and that’s fine. I’m happy with a core of Wright, Reyes, and Beltran going into 2008 and beyond.
I admit the second scenario is the not the best, but I bet if we took a poll among Met fans more people would rather have Andruw Jones/Johan Santana rathter than Beltran alone. Remember, it also shakes up the core, which they badly needed to do after the collapse.
As to Mets payroll. Yes, statiscally they have one of the higher payrolls, but if you take a closer look it is not as high as you think. As a percentage of revenue their payroll is lower than most teams. The Yankees spend almost $ 300 million in payroll, including payroll taxes, and if you divide that $ 300 million by their revenue, they are spending a lot more than the Mets, as are most teams. If you divide the Mets $ 115 million payroll by their revenue their payroll is actually lower than most teams. The Mets, especially with their new pricing, will have one of the highest profit margins if not the highest in baseball, because their payroll, although high, is not as high as it should be. The Mets could spend a lot more on salaries like say the Red Sox do, but they are more interested in turning a huge profit. Winning is secondary to profit with them.
Keith, thanks for doing all that typing for me. Saved me a lot of time.
Needless to say, I am on board with you. Last year was basically a fluke. And change for the sake of change usually turns out real bad.
“I bet if we took a poll among Met fans more people would rather have Andruw Jones/Johan Santana rathter than Beltran alone.”
You’re not really going out on a limb there. Even I would vote for Johan/Jones and I think Beltran is one of the best players in baseball. I just don’t see how that scenario is/was plausible at all. You needed the Giants willing to trade Lincecum for Beltran, then you needed to trade for Johan, resign him, and then sign Jones. That’s a lot of moving parts, some of which are dependent on other teams trading with us.
Is your second paragraph fact? If so, I’d like to see the revenue numbers you’re using. I got the below information from Forbes.com. The article came out 4.19.07 if you’re inclined to check it out.
Yankees:
Revenue:$302 mil
Operating Inc.: $-25.2 mil
Player Expenses: $219 mil
Gate Receipts: $155 mil
Mets:
Revenue:$217 mil
Operating Inc.: $24.4 mil
Player Expenses: $125 mil
Gate Receipts: $97 mil
Red Sox:
Revenue: $234 mil
Operating Inc.: $19.5 mil
Player Expenses: $146 mil
Gate Receipts: $155 mil
The Yankees are the only team that operate at a deficit. Plus, I don’t have the time to do a thorough read through, but after a quick glance I didn’t notice any mention of revenue from merchandise. Yankees and Red Sox merchandise sell like crazy everywhere. I also think NESN and YES are both worth more than SNY as of right now. The Yanks and Sox make money hand over fist. Not that the Mets don’t but the former two are money generating machines.
Lastly, the Sox spend as much as a they do to compete with the Yankees, who are their prime competition. No other teams operates like this. Even the Sox are +19.5 M for operating expenses. The Mets spend more money than any of their competition.
To say winning is secondary to profit is being somewhat melodramatic and also unfair. You can’t reasonably expect them to behave like the Yankees when A) No other team in baseball does what they do, not even the Red Sox and B) No other team in the NL East (their main competition) even approaches their salary level.
Plus, $$ spent does not equal wins. The Yanks have spent more than anyone and have been out of the playoffs the last two seasons. They barely made it this past season. And it was the guys making nothing (Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, and Melky) who bailed them out. The Rockies and D-Backs fielded teams of virtual unknowns and both made the NLCS. Basically, what matters most is making sound baseball decisions. Now, I’m not willing to fully endorse Minaya in this category because his baseball moves since the Nady trade have been dubious. However, I’m willing to be patient enough to see what 2008 brings. One thing’s for sure, I’m not going to complain about them spending money, because they spend enough to win.
Yankees payroll is pre-tax. They pay another 40% in taxes, and so do the Red Sox. Hey, if you want to continue in your optimistic fantasy land that is your right. This team considering it was no more than a .500 team after the first 50 games last year, and the lingering effect of the collapse will doom this season. They needed to make some big changes. No more than an 85 win team at best, and just remember with the Mets it is always about the money, be it our original ticket price increase subject or the lack of desire to spend big money.
How can any one make a statment like last year was a fluke. The Mets were a mediocrity for the last 2/3 of the season. Thats a span of over 100 games. They were swept not once, not twice, but three times by the Phillies. That’s hard to do but this team did it in one season!. They stunk in June when they played pretty good teams.
In the NL East they were third not first or second out of five teams in runs scored. They were 5th in NL in HRs. 10th in doubles. 7th in slugging….
In pitching they were 7th in ERA, quite the mediocrity I would say for having a genius for a pitching coach, 6th in WHIP .
So the fluke was if anything that they finished only one game out. We have actually been mediocre since 31 July 2006. We went thru the motions and everyone said it was because of the big lead and we slept thru most of 2007, or was that as good as this team is and was.
so you all like the team, fine I hope you’re right, but when the only move you make is to pick up 2 guys who both had below average numbers, you’ve made the team worse.
Rave about Chirch, but fact is in the prime of his career he couldn’t met the average for outfielders in theNL. Rave about Schneider but his D has worsened for the last 3 years and he has almost as little O as A-Hern.
keith:
I don’t follow hockey. What a sham of a sport it is when some games have 3 points and some have 2. You get punished when a team in your division is in an ovetime because they get a point for existing. Its like if baseball gave you part of a win for losing in extra innings.
Going from Reyes to Eckstein is like going from Jessica Alba to the local hooker in Hunts Point. Its insane.
Eckstein is popular cause he’s short, scrawny and white. He has absolutely no athletic ability. I have not been happy with the Mets offseason, but I am thrilled they didnt sign Eckstein. He is awful.
Look, you all can make all the money arguments you want. But an objective observer would tell you you’re wrong. Dead wrong. The Mets outspend the rest of their division by about $26M and their gate is significantly lower than the Sox and Yanks. Ask Marlins fans if we should be calling our owner Freddie Coupons.
You can take shots at me and tell me I live in a fantasy land or whatever, but this team still boasts 3 of the best players in baseball and has a solid overall team. Maybe they’re not the odds on best team they were last year, but they’re still one of the better teams in the NL.
And I’m not raving about Schneider and Church. I understand what kind of players they are. If I sound a bit loopy when speaking about them it’s because Mets fans are irrational when evaluating them just because Milledge was dealt for them. Both of those guys are better than their previous year’s counterpart. On this team Church and Schneider are going to bat 7th and 8th, respectively. We don’t need All Stars, we need people who will keep things moving. They’re role players who I believe will fill their roles.
It’s not that we’re doing somersaults over this team. I’m just as nervous about the rotation as anyone and I’m not about the put my house (well, if I had a house) up against this team making the playoffs, nevermind the world series. But to say this team sucks just isn’t accurate in my opinion.
And one more thing. Sloppy, you said this team was 10th in doubles. Well guess who had 43 last year, good for 8th in the NL and more than David Wright? That’s right, Ryan Church. Guess who was 13th among NL OFers in OPS? Ryan Church.
I’ll stop there because I wouldn’t want to get caught raving about Ryan Church. But seriously, below average? Him replacing Green makes this team worse? Really?
As for Schneider, I don’t care if his D has declined the last 3 years, he has to be an upgrade over LoDuca, who was a butcher back there. And LoDuca was also brutal at the plate as well. I think Schneider/Castro gives this team nice production at catcher next season.
Again, I understand these aren’t sexy moves. I know you guys would rather us have done what the Yankees did with Damon and sign Rowand to a ludicrous contract that would be an albatross in a year or two even though Rowand’s 162 game averages are eerily similar to what Church gave the Nationals last year.
Taylor – I have taken a few eco courses too. I was not trashing your post, just pointing out that it followed basic supply demand.
Keith – Your reasoning for why the Mets raise prices because of payroll is off base I think. The more correct analysis was done by Taylor above. As he stated it is Eco 101. The relative inelasticity of the demand curve allows the supplier ( The Mets Org ) to increase the price without significantly decreasing their customers. See my post above about a boycott as being the only thing to change this behavior. I don’t like it but that is a fact. Also as FANS most will grumble and go anyway because they are fans.
To your post regarding negativity. The bottom line is as someone above posted the Mets were a 500 team for half the season. This was not a one month swoon – which is bad enuf. I posted back in early September that we lost. Most thought I was just a bad fan. But I saw this team just was not a team. Did not want it enough to just go out and take it regardless of who laces up the shoes for the day.
I agree there is a wealth of talent on this team, but it also has significant flaws. Unless we replace Glavine with an Innings Eater™ our pitching most likely will collapse again unless one of our two young pitchers can do the unexpected and give us 15 wins and not burn the pen and the two old guys give us enough innings not to burn the pen and Alou gives us more than 50 games and..
The offseason is still young and Omar really has not started yet. I would have wished we could have gotten the Japanese pitcher for our rotation or one of the FA OF to play in RF for us but that did not happen. We resigned our FA and game up Lastings for 2 players that I hope will do OK for us. Personally I think we could have done better for those two positions. Even though I am a critic of LM I do not think we should have gone that way.
Dave
keith: I know you hate being corrected, but you don’t have facts correct. So…
the Mets had a lower gate than the Red Sox ??? WRONG buddy.
Mets gate 2007 3.8 million 3rd behind NYY and LAD
Sox gate 2007 2.9 million 12 in MLB
The last time the Sox had a bigger gate than the Mets was 2004.
The Milledge trade argument is getting old. I just hope Church doesn’t pull a Bonilla and put those ear plugs on when he goes on the field!
Keith,
I see you are one of these fantasy world fans. The bottom line is this. This team had the biggest collapse in baseball history, they now have had the worst off season they have had in years in years, and it will lead to a bad next season. If you think someone is going to wave a magic wand come next April, and everything will be right with the Mets again you are living in fantasy land. No better than an 85 win team. Remember that.
Sloppy,
You can’t just look at attendance figures. The Red Sox have the highest average ticket price in baseball. I can’t confirm this but I think the difference between their average ticket price (approximately $47.41) and the Mets average ticket price in 2007 (less than $28.43 – Cardinals had the 5th highest average ticket price) was enough for them to bring in more in gate receipts.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/apr/03/you-pay-big-to-see-the-bosox/
What exactly does this mean? I’m a fantasy land fan? Because I use statistics to back up my argument rather than opinion and conjecture? Stats actually happened. If you’re secretly an MLB scout who has seen countless Church atbats then I would give the floor to you and go by your word. But I don’t think that’s the case. When I don’t know about a player I go on over to baseball reference and check out his stat line and after looking at Church’s I said to myself, “well, not what I thought Milledge would bring back, but he’s surely an upgrade over Green and… oh wow, 43 doubles, that’s not too bad for a guy who’s going to hit 7th.”
Church and Schneider aren’t all star upgrades, but they’re solid role players who are going to be our 7 and 8 hitters. If Delgado doesn’t rebound this team is going to be the same one we had last year.
You guys keep ragging on Church like we just acquired Ryan Langerhans. Church may not be an All Star, but he’s a solid everyday RF. Remember, we don’t need him to produce like a tradition RF because our CF hits like a corner OF. I agree, the Milledge trade argument is getting old. And I am on record as being dubious personally about it, but looking at it objectively, I need to wait and see how Church does and Milledge develops.
Sloppy, I don’t mind being corrected, I took those stats from Forbes.com. If they’re false I apologize. Regardless, the Sox generate way more revenue than the Mets do through their merchandising. But I still think I’m right. The Red Sox gate receipts are higher than the Mets, which is all that matters, because as the dude above me pointed out, they charge a whole lot more for tickets than we do. The Mets should draw more foot traffic because they have about 15,000 more seats at Shea than Fenway does.
And Todd, I do agree with you. They need to replace Glavine’s innings. But I do think the lineup is fine. I believe Delgado will have a bounce back season. He may not be the Delgado of old, but I don’t think 30 homers is unreasonable. Everyone forgets, we had a TON of OF injuries last year: Alou, Beltran, Green, Endy, Milledge, Gomez, and even Ben Johnson all spent time on the DL last year. We had musical chairs at 2B and LoDuca, who was an important cog going into last season, was terrible. With Castillo solidifying 2B and the 2 hole, Delgado coming back stronger, Church solidifying RF (with Gomez/Easley sprinkled in against tough lefties), to go along with a solid core of Wright, Reyes, and Beltran, I don’t see that as being “fantasy” or waving a magic wand. I see it as the whole team bouncing back to ‘06 form after a really rough season.
The rotation is a different story. It has the potential to be a powder keg, which would of course have a trickle down effect on the pen. If Maine and Perez take a step back (which is likely, since pitchers tend to take a step back after they have a year where their innings increase like theirs did) and Pedro and Duque go down for a spell (again, likely), we’re pretty much screwed.
So there you go, I’m bullish on our lineup bouncing back, but bearish in regard to our staff. If I seem like I view this team through rose colored glasses, it’s only because I prefer to focus on the positives of what this team DOES have going for them, and they do have a lot of talent. I also think the general treatment of Church has been very unfair and that’s why I defend him so much. That and no one else seems to defend him at all.
The only way this lineup bounces back is if Delgado is the Delgado of 2006 and Alou plays at least 120 games. If you remember most of the middle of the season this lineup struggled to score runs. That was when Alou was out. I have no confidence that a 42 year old guy with his injury history will stay healthy. As to Delgado, who in the world knows ? The Mets lineup is very overrated. They are far from the American League lineup that some people think it is.
As to the pitching staff, not only do they need to replace Glavine, but who is going to replace El Duque when he goes on his annual two or three month vacation ? Pelfrey is already in the rotation, and that is a weak link. Look, I am saying 85 wins which is not terrible, but it is hardly a playoff team or a championship contender.
Todd, I think we’re pretty much on the same page with our view of this team, with you leaning more towards the pessimistic side and me leaning towards optimistic.
Alou is a gamble, no doubt, but I think he’s worth it because he can still rake. Also, they’re not signing any corner OF long term with FMart and Gomez in the wings.
I still have some hope for Pelfrey and Humber. Signing a Silva or a Lohse to soak up some innings (maybe even a Josh Towers) wouldn’t be a bad idea for this year. They’d be replacing Glavine, who despite being our “ace” last year was nothing more than a middle of the rotation innings eater. However, I don’t know if I’d want those guys signed to long term deals.
Keith, it is funny I was thinking the same thing. The more we go back and forth the more we agree. I also agree I just like to point out the negatives while you point to the positives. We will see which wins out, but I would be lying to you if I didn’t tell you I have a bad feeling about next season. With a terrible 2007 season and a terrible off season, I just think bad things will follow in 2008. We shall see.
Keith, As for rvenues for mechandise, maybe f the Mets had more guys whose shirt you wanted, they’d sell more stuff. How many Church shurts have they sold, other than tom you? How many Schneider? They also have SNY, and you are going to tell me its in a smaller market than NESN?
As for gate, you said gate, you didn’t say revenues.
As for Church being a good every day, if you looked at his stats which you proudly proclaim you do, you’d say to yourself, this guy has never had 500 ABs. He’s not an every day player. Not even on the worse offense in the NL.
As to waiting for results, if we have to wait for results what the heck are we going to argue about all Winter?
We all hope he’s a star in the making, but you know as well as I do with a fan base that is generally displeased with the trade and with the moves of the GM, and the collapse, and a fan base that loves to boo in a hurry, Church had better be one tough cookie because the first bad game at home, you know the reaction wil be BOOOOOOO BOOOOOOO etc…