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	<title>Comments on: Chin music for Clemens &#8230;</title>
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	<description>All about the Mets</description>
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		<title>By: AstoriaMetsFan</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31277</link>
		<dc:creator>AstoriaMetsFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31277</guid>
		<description>Once again, you say &quot;he has the pwer to present an issue that was well known and provide a solution. He can then persuade the owners that it is the right thing to do for many reasons and dare the union to defend the indefensible.&quot;

What power? What power did the commissioner have?  Where does that power come from?  What could Selig have done with the union obstructing him at every turn?  Persuade the owners?  He didn&#039;t have to persuade the owners, he had to persuade the player&#039;s union.  Selig had no power to do anthing without the union conceding a testing system and a system of penalties for violating the PED ban.  Without Congress becoming involved in 2005 the union would have never agreed to what we have now.  It was Congress, through Selig, who put pressure on the union to address steriods.

The irony of this is that this is the exact situation with HGH we are at today.  If you want to irradicate HGH from the game you have to test blood, not urine.  The union has been adamantly opposed to blood testing citing privacy concerns of the players over the integrity of the game and health of its players.  That was same argument they used against any steroid testing before 2005.  There is NOTHING Selig or the owners can do until the union changes its position on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, you say &#8220;he has the pwer to present an issue that was well known and provide a solution. He can then persuade the owners that it is the right thing to do for many reasons and dare the union to defend the indefensible.&#8221;</p>
<p>What power? What power did the commissioner have?  Where does that power come from?  What could Selig have done with the union obstructing him at every turn?  Persuade the owners?  He didn&#8217;t have to persuade the owners, he had to persuade the player&#8217;s union.  Selig had no power to do anthing without the union conceding a testing system and a system of penalties for violating the PED ban.  Without Congress becoming involved in 2005 the union would have never agreed to what we have now.  It was Congress, through Selig, who put pressure on the union to address steriods.</p>
<p>The irony of this is that this is the exact situation with HGH we are at today.  If you want to irradicate HGH from the game you have to test blood, not urine.  The union has been adamantly opposed to blood testing citing privacy concerns of the players over the integrity of the game and health of its players.  That was same argument they used against any steroid testing before 2005.  There is NOTHING Selig or the owners can do until the union changes its position on this.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31260</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31260</guid>
		<description>AstoriaMetsFan,

I do not know the rules around the commissioner&#039;s office. I suspect it is much like the president where you have broad powers but are severely limited.

However as the face of baseball he has the power to present an issue that was well known and provide a solution. He can then persuade the owners that it is the right thing to do for many reasons and dare the union to defend the indefensible. Additionally steroids is a prescription drug so unless a player has a doctor who proscribes the drug he is breaking the law.

This commissioner is a joke and not only on this issue.

Oh. And I have put forth a solution to the steroids issue. It is to follow the Olympic model and suspend for a number of years for the first offense and ban altogether for a follow on. Also to strip any on field accomplishments during the period in question.

One more thing on the New York Times website is an article by Murray Chase who reports Fay Vincent sent a letter out to the owners in 1991 that Steroids as well as all prescription drugs were illegal without a prescription. So this issue is at least 16 years old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AstoriaMetsFan,</p>
<p>I do not know the rules around the commissioner&#8217;s office. I suspect it is much like the president where you have broad powers but are severely limited.</p>
<p>However as the face of baseball he has the power to present an issue that was well known and provide a solution. He can then persuade the owners that it is the right thing to do for many reasons and dare the union to defend the indefensible. Additionally steroids is a prescription drug so unless a player has a doctor who proscribes the drug he is breaking the law.</p>
<p>This commissioner is a joke and not only on this issue.</p>
<p>Oh. And I have put forth a solution to the steroids issue. It is to follow the Olympic model and suspend for a number of years for the first offense and ban altogether for a follow on. Also to strip any on field accomplishments during the period in question.</p>
<p>One more thing on the New York Times website is an article by Murray Chase who reports Fay Vincent sent a letter out to the owners in 1991 that Steroids as well as all prescription drugs were illegal without a prescription. So this issue is at least 16 years old.</p>
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		<title>By: AstoriaMetsFan</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31252</link>
		<dc:creator>AstoriaMetsFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31252</guid>
		<description>Dave,

You said &quot;I believe you are wrong about Selig. If he cared he would have stopped this like a real commissioner ( any of his two predecessors ) should have over ten years ago.&quot;

What should the Commissioner(s) have done?  And how was he going to get something done?

AS the Mitchell report showed, the steriod problem is not nearly nice and easy and simple as you present.  It&#039;s far more complex and involves many more parties than just the Commissioner.  Placing all the responsibility on the Commissioner&#039;s shoulders is innaccurate and unfair. Your analysis provides no means of solving the steriods issue.  You&#039;re erroneously placing blame on one single individual and that ultimately gets you no closer to solving the problem in a pragmatic fashion.

The union and its membership are ultimately the parties who have to solve the problem.  Selig can&#039;t mandate from on high.  He does not have the power to impose rules and processes that must be unquestionably followed by the players.  ALL player issues, including PHDs, have to be resolved under the guidelines provided by the Collective Bargaining Agreement to which the player&#039;s union has to agree to. If the union does not agree to a solution, then the Commissioner&#039;s hands are tied and there is nothing he can do. 

We all know how powerful the player&#039;s union is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>You said &#8220;I believe you are wrong about Selig. If he cared he would have stopped this like a real commissioner ( any of his two predecessors ) should have over ten years ago.&#8221;</p>
<p>What should the Commissioner(s) have done?  And how was he going to get something done?</p>
<p>AS the Mitchell report showed, the steriod problem is not nearly nice and easy and simple as you present.  It&#8217;s far more complex and involves many more parties than just the Commissioner.  Placing all the responsibility on the Commissioner&#8217;s shoulders is innaccurate and unfair. Your analysis provides no means of solving the steriods issue.  You&#8217;re erroneously placing blame on one single individual and that ultimately gets you no closer to solving the problem in a pragmatic fashion.</p>
<p>The union and its membership are ultimately the parties who have to solve the problem.  Selig can&#8217;t mandate from on high.  He does not have the power to impose rules and processes that must be unquestionably followed by the players.  ALL player issues, including PHDs, have to be resolved under the guidelines provided by the Collective Bargaining Agreement to which the player&#8217;s union has to agree to. If the union does not agree to a solution, then the Commissioner&#8217;s hands are tied and there is nothing he can do. </p>
<p>We all know how powerful the player&#8217;s union is.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31241</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31241</guid>
		<description>Ravi - I believe you are wrong about Selig. If he cared he would have stopped this like a real commissioner ( any of his two predecessors ) should have over ten years ago. We should not even be talking about the legitimacy of McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, ARod, etc. It would never have happened. They all would be players who make a run but fall way short.

As I have said many times over the past week this is all for show. Some people will agree with me and many others will say I am clueless. That is ok. Check back in 5 years to see nothing has changed and these charlatans have the records.

As you can see on this blog the court of public opinion is decidedly mixed. Many support their favorite players and will defend them. Others condemn them and many just do not care.

Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ravi &#8211; I believe you are wrong about Selig. If he cared he would have stopped this like a real commissioner ( any of his two predecessors ) should have over ten years ago. We should not even be talking about the legitimacy of McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, ARod, etc. It would never have happened. They all would be players who make a run but fall way short.</p>
<p>As I have said many times over the past week this is all for show. Some people will agree with me and many others will say I am clueless. That is ok. Check back in 5 years to see nothing has changed and these charlatans have the records.</p>
<p>As you can see on this blog the court of public opinion is decidedly mixed. Many support their favorite players and will defend them. Others condemn them and many just do not care.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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		<title>By: Annie Savoy</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31212</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie Savoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31212</guid>
		<description>Ravi is right, the court of public opinion will speak to the issue this time around.  

Because this is the off-season the owners, managers, coaches, players etc. cannot escape to the stadiums/clubhouses and are with their families.  Perhaps seeing their reaction will make these users understand what they have done to themselves, their sport, and their reputations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ravi is right, the court of public opinion will speak to the issue this time around.  </p>
<p>Because this is the off-season the owners, managers, coaches, players etc. cannot escape to the stadiums/clubhouses and are with their families.  Perhaps seeing their reaction will make these users understand what they have done to themselves, their sport, and their reputations.</p>
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		<title>By: scoopcoop</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31205</link>
		<dc:creator>scoopcoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31205</guid>
		<description>JD, do you have a vote for the HOF and how would you vote on Bonds and Clemens?

Perhaps the one thing that will come out of all of this is that some of these guys will be hit in the pocket b/c they might not get the speaking digs or TV commercials or TV analyst stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JD, do you have a vote for the HOF and how would you vote on Bonds and Clemens?</p>
<p>Perhaps the one thing that will come out of all of this is that some of these guys will be hit in the pocket b/c they might not get the speaking digs or TV commercials or TV analyst stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Ravi</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31204</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31204</guid>
		<description>Dave-

I think if given the chance, Selig would, if for nothing else is legacy.  However, it is not that simple.  The players union has faught drug testing tooth and nail for years.  The penalties we see now would not have been put into place if not for Congress&#039; intervention in the matter.  I personally question Donald Fehr&#039;s leadership, as you would think it would be in the best interest of the players to get rid of the cheaters, yet the union had been against testing forever.  Even when they first accepted it, penalties were basically a slap on the wrist, save for repeat offenders.

Ultimately, the proof is what it is, that these players will be punished in the court of public opinion...Already, Clemens legacy has been tarnished..Perhaps not to a &quot;Bondsian&quot; level, but the reaction of the Texas HS Baseball Association is certainly evidence that things are changing for him.  Hopefully, there comes a time when you don&#039;t have to speculate over who did what, but it seems like that may be a long time from today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave-</p>
<p>I think if given the chance, Selig would, if for nothing else is legacy.  However, it is not that simple.  The players union has faught drug testing tooth and nail for years.  The penalties we see now would not have been put into place if not for Congress&#8217; intervention in the matter.  I personally question Donald Fehr&#8217;s leadership, as you would think it would be in the best interest of the players to get rid of the cheaters, yet the union had been against testing forever.  Even when they first accepted it, penalties were basically a slap on the wrist, save for repeat offenders.</p>
<p>Ultimately, the proof is what it is, that these players will be punished in the court of public opinion&#8230;Already, Clemens legacy has been tarnished..Perhaps not to a &#8220;Bondsian&#8221; level, but the reaction of the Texas HS Baseball Association is certainly evidence that things are changing for him.  Hopefully, there comes a time when you don&#8217;t have to speculate over who did what, but it seems like that may be a long time from today.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/comment-page-1/#comment-31201</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mets.lohudblogs.com/2007/12/17/chin-music-for-clemens/#comment-31201</guid>
		<description>The bottom line in all this is there will be debate for a few weeks. Some will defend the players/records saying there is no proof. Others will condemn the players/records saying it is obvious and this report reaffirms their doubts.

Selig will not do anything to push for real reforms.

He will not mandate blood tests ( 2 each test like bike racing or the Olympics ). He will not create tougher penalties for the ones caught. He will not penalize the teams, management, employees for helping the cheaters or looking the other way.

Congress will be mollified that something was done. ARod and others will continue to break records. The players who should be the standard bearers - the Babe, Aaron, Mays, Seaver, Kofax, et al. will be mere footnotes in the mysts of time.

All hail the new heroes - even if they are just the new bionic man.

Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bottom line in all this is there will be debate for a few weeks. Some will defend the players/records saying there is no proof. Others will condemn the players/records saying it is obvious and this report reaffirms their doubts.</p>
<p>Selig will not do anything to push for real reforms.</p>
<p>He will not mandate blood tests ( 2 each test like bike racing or the Olympics ). He will not create tougher penalties for the ones caught. He will not penalize the teams, management, employees for helping the cheaters or looking the other way.</p>
<p>Congress will be mollified that something was done. ARod and others will continue to break records. The players who should be the standard bearers &#8211; the Babe, Aaron, Mays, Seaver, Kofax, et al. will be mere footnotes in the mysts of time.</p>
<p>All hail the new heroes &#8211; even if they are just the new bionic man.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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