Some still don’t get it
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- December
- 14
The phone has rung a lot this morning. Radio stations wanting to talk about the Mitchell Report.
“They still have to hit the ball, don’t they?’’ seems to be the tired refrain from those asking what the big deal is all about.
Yes, they do, but it is more than that.
They call them “performance enhancing drugs’’ for a reason, and that’s because they enhance performance. They don’t improve your skills, but they can make you stronger, faster, and enable you to train harder and longer.
All those years covering Roger Clemens and much was made about his work ethic and long and hard training programs. Yes, I saw him work, but I didn’t know how he was fueled. Clemens attributed his success to how hard he worked, and now it is known why he was able to work so hard.
It’s a shame, really. For me, I have to look at Clemens with the same skepticism as I do Barry Bonds.
Forget about the health issues for a moment, because quite honestly, the public doesn’t care. Who wept for Mike Webster and Lyle Alzado? They are footnotes now. If you want entertainment, go to the movies or watch wrestling. But, that’s not sports.
With sports, people want to know if what they are watching is real. That’s the essence of yesterday.
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on Friday, December 14th, 2007 at 12:47 pm by John Delcos.
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JD-Do you have data to back up your statements? I’m sure you don’t because there isn’t any. Look at the list is full of journeymen and hanger-ons. With that said I agree that there should be a ban on all PED’s in baseball but remember this country survies on PED whether it’s Red Bull, A double espresso at Starbucks or Viagra.
“If you want entertainment, go to the movies or watch wrestling. But, that’s not sports.
With sports, people want to know if what they are watching is real. That’s the essence of yesterday.”
Amen.
Very nicely said.
I (and I’m sure many others) thought Clemens was pretty much done after he left the Red Sox. His resurgence was directly attributable to the drugs allowing his body recover.
Nine players on the 2000 Yankees using steroids. None cited on the 2000 Mets. If Yankee ownership had any character, they would turn in their 2000 World Series trophy. Then it could be given to its rightful owners: The 2000 Mets.
Barry,
Unfortunately, we did have juicers on the 2000 Mets, albeit guys who didn’t play much of a role – Matt Franco and Todd Pratt.
I don’t think they could retroactively give us the 2000 crown, becuase that would just open up a pandora’s box..of course, they could just strip the Yankees of the title, and end it at that
How are PEDs any different than Lasik eye surgery? Or Tommy John surgery? I mean legality aside. Don’t they all enhance your performance? Why do we place greater weight on certain enhancers and ignore others? What about amphetamines? Or caffeine for that matter? No one of these guys is pure, after all?
I wept for Lyle Alzado. I remember the day he removed Chris Ward’s helmet and then threw it at him. I laughed. I cried.
MLB is run by a bunch of knuckleheads. What does this report prove? Largely, nothing. Most of it is based on hearsay and conjecture, while the rest is from BALCO… which we already knew about.
So basically baseball has torn down the reputations of some really good ballplayers with very little evidence. And you can show me all the canceled checks in the world, but there is no evidence that any of these guys took steroids/PEDs. There was no drug testing policy in place then and there is no way for anyone to prove these guys did this stuff.
In the end, it’s just one big witch hunt, because these guys named are hardly the only ones to juice (if they did juice). Except, imagine a young woman of Salem spreading rumors around the town that she was a witch. Why would you be the one to initiate your own burning at the stake? Seriously, baseball needs to take some PR lessons from the NFL. Shawne Merriman was suspended for 4 games last year and some writers were advocating him for defensive player of the year.
[Apologies for the lengthy post but this has been on my mind…]
Of course PEDs are a big deal. They cut right to the heart of the game’s integrity. But Mitchell’s report is pure politics of the most cynical kind. Once again, the owners are playing the public and the media like suckers. Their primary motivations are to take as little heat as possible for a problem they helped create, and to parlay a perceived opening into concessions from Fehr and the union. Nothing in this report suggests that they have much interest in trying to solve the problem.
The Mitchell report goes out of its way to to facilitate rumor-mongering and speculation without taking on any of the tough questions. At this point there are only two questions that matter if you are interested in sustainable solutions. 1. How big was/is the PED problem? 2. How much do PEDs actually enhance performance?
The way you address the first question shows how serious you are. MLB isn’t the first big organization to have a drug problem. There are approaches you take for assessing the size of the problem. Mitchell did virtually none of that stuff. He was only able to identify fewer than 100 users-
and most of the household names were already in the public discussion before his “investigation”-yet he goes on to declare that PED use was widespread, rampant. Well, how does he know? The press excoriated Jose Canseco for that kind of speculation. Why should Mitchell be any different? It’s quite likely that more than 80 or so guys he mentions used PEDs but there’s no method in the report that can be replicated or refined to come up with a valid estimate of how big the PED problem is. It doesn’t even appear that he made particular use of the reams of minor league data that must now be available as a way of beginning to establish a baseline. Mitchell wasn’t serious. Like any Washington insider worth his salt, “he fixed the facts around the policy.”The second question is the one no one wants to touch for reasons I just cannot comprehend. The sure-fire way to get major leaguers to stop taking PEDs is to demonstrate that they don’t work. In baseball, upper body strength is not an absolute advantage. It can easily be offset by other factors, like decreased flexibility or speed. In today’s Times they show a rough graph of production during years of alleged steroid use by players named in the Mitchell report. Lots of these guys did no better or worse than their career averages during those years. Baseball, more than any other sport it seems, could do more to curtail PED use on the demand side. I’d bet the minor league data built up since they implemented their testing policy could potentially provide some real insight.
I really am surprised by how awful a lot of people consider steroid use to be. I’m not in favor of allowing it but I don’t consider it to be something that makes someone a dirty cheat. Talk of expunging players whole record from the record books is very extreme. We’re talking about people who supplied their bodies with external sources of chemicals so that they could perform and compete at a higher level. This is not equivalent to throwing a game of paying off an umpire or tampering with your opponents equipment. It is definitely a much less serious offense than any of those. The real difficulty is in how to think about the accomplishments of these players. I don’t think Clemens and Bonds would have done anywhere near as well as they did without the aid of these drugs. I think of them as merely great players now but not all-time greats.
Everyone closed their eyes to what was happening. The owners because they needed to make baseball profitable again after the strike. The players association which only cares about how much money players can make. The media which closed their eyes or else they would lose access to the players. Which in turn means they would lose their jobs.
I really believe Bud Selig would like to have independent drug
testing, ( for steriods & HGH ) but the Donald Fehr will never let it happen. I don’t believe that Fehr cares about the game only about having an edge over the owners.
As I said yesterday, if the Olympics can make you vanish then baseball can make you vanish. People like keith, if I’m ever on trial I hope you are on the jury so I’ll walk. By Sunday we’ll all be talking football again.
Sloppy, this has nothing to do with justice. The injustice has already occurred, to all those players who were clean and to those who were clean and didn’t make it because they stayed clean. This is all a waste of time. How can you suspend players who never failed a test because there was no testing policy back then? This is just Selig trying to make a very poor effort to “fix” what he helped cause.
And sloppy, I would appreciate not being painted in broad strokes because of my opinions on one isolated issue, thanks.
Keith This is your quote
“you can show me all the canceled checks in the world, but there is no evidence that any of these guys took steroids/PEDs.” That’s all I was referring to…. Now you say these guilty guys who a little while ago you said weren’t guilty, hurt the not guilty guys who you claim are all the guys.
I guess you never heard of a conviction based on circumstantial evidence. So if you can’t take the heat you know how to leave the kitchen. I still want you on my jury.
did I mention Selig NO
did i mention suspensions NO
Did I refer directly to your statement YES.
That’s all bud….....
Maybe the report would be taken more seriously if they had consequences. Like Bud Selig, who had a blind eye as commissioner and team owner, were to quit his job (challenge Fehr to quit). Or maybe if the media were to start raising a fuss about the real juiced up players” the NFL which has guys that make Bonds and Clemens look like 98 pound weaklings. It has assistant team physicians getting caught with $150,000 worth of HGH. No one cares: the fans, media, Congress and especially the union head.
I’m sure you want a union head who is going after you as a member instead of fighting for you. Yeah, sure you do.
Sloppy, this isn’t a trial, it’s a witch hunt. None of these players have been given an opportunity to refute this evidence. McNamee hasn’t been cross examined.
Yes, I’ve heard of conviction on circumstantial evidence, but it needs to be good and it needs to be fairly conclusive. It also depends on what burden of proof.
Personally, I don’t like rushing to judgment. Do I feel that most of those named took steroids? Sure, I think Clemens and Hundley roided up. You’d be an idiot not to believe that. However, the fact is that you’re only hearing one side of the issue and while Mitchell’s work is certainly impressive, I would like to wait more than 24 hours before I hold the torch to Roger’s feet.
You should hope that someone like me is on trial for you, rather than someone like you. At least you know you’ll receive a fair and OBJECTIVE hearing, rather than someone who leaps to judgment at the first hint of contrary evidence.
Fehr isn’t fighting for anything. If he really cared about his players he wouldn’t risk their health by fighting testing for so long.
Sorry Keith, but you’re wrong here –
“None of these players have been given an opportunity to refute this evidence”
Every one of them were offered more than one chance to talk with Mitchell – he contacted them and they refused after Fehr told them not to talk.
Sloppy and I agree on this as well as others in the past few days.
1. Mitchell only had a few sources because no one ( except for those cited ) had to talk to him so they didn’t.
2. With the limited resources at his disposal he actually outed a wide variety of players, both top end and anonymous.
3. Mitchell was not charged to hand out penalties. That is the commissioners office where Selig hours later essentially said everyone on the report gets a pass.
4. Cheating did not start in 2000.
5. As Sloppy says and I said on another thread. The records are for pride. Wipe out the records and they have no legacy. They are still millionaires and that is sufficient reward for the cheaters.
6. All of baseball needs to use drastic penalties like the Olympics do. First offense 2 year ban , second out for life ( or something like that ). Also the owners/gm/managers/scouts/clubhouse etc needs to have penalties too.
As I said before this is all for show. Selig can let us debate, he can show congress he is serious and then go on to do what he really wants which is to make the owners more money.
Dave
A sucker is born every minute – P T Barnum
One more thing.
If the offended ( who are rich ) are really serious they can take the parties to court for defamation of character.
They can ask to have the accusers prove the allegations.
It has been about 2 years now. Not one of the millionaire players has done so to anyone.
Palmeiro who famously was publicly outraged at being accused has been proved a fraud.
I do not see the pious Bonds take any of his accusers to court to clear his good name.
The reason no one has done that is they do not want to prove the accusers right. Because documents will be made public. It is much easier to say ‘Liar Liar pants on fire’!
I think the Yanks can keep the 2000 World Series rings..
So Barry, which Yankees aside from Clemens and Jose Canseco (a small role on the team with Denny Neagle Jason Grimsley and Glenallen Hill) supposedly took steroids in 2000. For Clemens, 2000 was the first years of suppoused uss.
The Mitchell report:
1- Pettitte: “McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone … on two to four occasions” in 2002 to help Pettitte recover from elbow tendonitis, the report says.
2- David Justice used after the 2000 World Series
3- Chuck Knoblauch in 2001 (says McNamee);
4-Ron Villone first purchased human growth hormone from Radomski during the 2004 season.
5-Mike Stanton in 2003 with the Mets (Radomski met Stanley around 2001 while he was pitching for the Yankees. Radomski recalled making two sales of human growth hormone to Stanton. The first occurred in 2003, during Stanton’s first season with the Mets.);
6-Randy Velarde would have told us he received the “cream” and the “clear” from Anderson in a transaction that occurred in a parking lot during spring training in 2003.
Annie, why should they talk to Mitchell? Mitchell didn’t have subpoena power and there are no repercussions behind this report.
The argument that these players should sue for defamation of character is ridiculous. It would be worse PR to engage in such a trial, because even if your name was cleared, you would have to endure months upon months of “Day 28 of the Andy Pettitte defamation hearings… Pettitte as you all know was accused of…” Not to mention that litigating would be more trouble than its worth, even if he wins. And if he loses it would be disastrous, even if it was on a technicality or something. It’s just smarter to issue a flat denial, note that you never tested positive, and move on.
In the end, I am probably wasting my time here, but I’m trying to play devil’s advocate and argue from the other side here. Also, I really think this was a stupid move by MLB.
What I find so amusing is that two of the biggest names in this, Bonds and Clemens, were such arrogant #@!#%s. You’d think they might have been a little more humble considering the fact that their success was in part artificial.
on to other issues
Dbacks get Haren
Had to give up alot…pitchers Brett Anderson, Greg Smith and Dana Eveland, outfielders Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham and first baseman Chris Carter. 6 for 1.
I guess those rumors of Mets having to give up 6 or 7 for sanatana might be true.
Haren and Webb…Mets can’t compete w/that
Too bad Omar can’t say this
Diamondbacks Senior VP/GM Josh Byrnes said
“Our success in scouting and player development allowed us to make a rare trade like this. We certainly traded many quality players, but we have the youth and depth to justify such a trade.â€?
“Haren and Webb…Mets can’t compete w/that”
Come on scoop, it’s not as simple as that and you know it. We could play this game all day long. “mets can’t compete with Smoltz/Hudson, Peavy/Young, etc.”
I still like the Mets lineup over the D-Backs lineup. Plus, the D-Backs posted their record despite a negative run differential. They’re going to need to see significant improvement from their young position players to have similar success this season.
Keith You are wrong on every front on the subject, and dave has totally refuted your thoughts so its back to the aces.
Scoop The D-Backs do indeed have quite a 1-2 punch in the rotation now. They dumped Velvarde so I guess they thought he had a fluke year or they have a new closer they trust. I guess Omar will get us Livan for sure now. Please Omar, let the kids finish off the rotation. Please, please please…...
Sloppy, you’re all certainly entitled to your own opinions, I’m just trying to show that this isn’t a black and white issue and we shouldn’t be so quick to vilify these people on the report or exonerate those not on it.
You guys all make great points and are dead on with most of them. But this isn’t simply a matter of who’s right and who’s wrong. I wasn’t trying to be “right”, rather, I just don’t believe in “piling on.” Sure, it would be easy to say “expunge the records and the cheaters, yeeeeeeah!!!” It’s a lot harder to examine the evidence and come to an objective conclusion by looking at this from all angles.
And for the record, there shouldn’t be any penalties for anyone who took PEDs before there was testing. This was obviously a widespread problem and instead of targeting these few, clapping our hands, and calling it a day there should be a more stringent testing plan put in place with harsher penalties.
To “FYI”, I got the information from Len Berman (WNBC). He said in two separate newscasts that the 2000 Yankees had nine players using steroids.
Just read that Mike Cameron broke off talks with the Padres. What do you suppose the chances are that he winds up playing in Atlanta?
OK, Keith, At least you are not on the side with Yankee fans who are disparaging this man because he found Yankee and not Red Sox stars.
But…the things you want, more stringent testing and more severe punishments are a step 2. You aren’t going to successfuly pressure a Union to give up something without a hammer or without a bone to throw in return. The Mitchell report brings the issue back nto the news as being much more than Bonds. Having Clemons on the list was the best thing, not because Met fans hate him, but because the moron talking heads on ESPN and sports radio came to idolize him and his arrogance. Now the supposed best pitcher and hitter are the same. Now the issue is black and white stars. Its stuff like that that leads to the next step in punishments.
Clarence Clemons is on the list? Shit. I knew he got bigger after the Born in the USA tour. And, sure enough, he started having major problems with his hips shortly thereafter. Do you think he was using during Born To Run? I always thought his performance on Jungleland was little juiced up.
I always wondered about Clarence “Big Man” Clemons myself. No one could hold that sax solo from Jungleland without juice but I always thought it was Bruce Juice!
Anywho can we get back to who the hell the Mets are going to pick up to actually make them you know better next year? Dan Haren is now off the block and The Diamondbacks look damn good to me.
Omar Minaya will be happy to go to camp with the team he has. Why shouldn’t he? He has a contract for two more years. Maybe the best hope is the other teamsin the NL East haven’t made any impact moves.
Sloppy, that’s a fair point and a very valid one.
As a big time fan of the sport in general, it makes me sick to see it dragged through the mud constantly for something the NFL gets away with on a regular basis.
The same way it makes me sick to see the NBA lambasted for things the NFL gets a free pass on.
Funny thing is, after baseball, football is probably my next sport of choice. But the way the media and public gloss over its flaws while bringing the hammer down on other leagues is disgusting.
BH, do you remember that interview on ESPN where Bonds said to the interviewer with an arrogant smile “I don’t do steroids because I don’t have to do steroids”. When I think about that I am astounded.
i think the media needs to be upbraided for protecting Roidger for so many years. The kid gloves for that guy were unbelievable. But maybe that’s just me.
RE: hearsay and conjecture. I’d be more suspicious of that Van Zandt guy. and…I wonder if the nfl has a single player who doesn’t use steroids.
RE: Dan Gurney’s comment above. Two more years to build the Nats into an NL east powerhouse and then take back his rightful job as the GM of the Ex-pos?
Barry,
You misunderstood the news reports. The reports didnt say 9 Yanks were using steroids at the time of the 2000 world series. The reports stated that 9 Yanks on that team had been cited in the Mitchell report.
Also on the topic of “other news”. The Mets have just announced that after the wonderful season and performance that they gave Met Fans last year, that they are going to be raising ticket prices next year, in some cases as much as 20%. Definitely not worried about mending fences with the fans. Might as well take Fan Appreciation Day off of the schedule. After last year’s digraceful walk out after the last game of the season without so much as acknowledging the existence of the fans who waited as they have always done for their Mets to go back out and salute them, they might as well portay themselves as their only top priority.
stillsane
The Mets know they can raise prices b/c if you don’t buy this yr you won’t be on the priority list for 09 Citifield.
I hope this does not turn out like the Football Giants when they built Giants Stadium and stunk for yrs b/c they knew fans would come even if they didn’t have a good team.
BB analogy would be the O’s who still stink after all these yrs at Camden.
Thanks for the very unsurprising news stillsane.
It makes sense, after all they got rid of Glavines
salary and Green and LoDuca and Mota, and Alou makes quite a bit less this year, and the Marlins pay a chunk of Delgado and replaced them with the high salaried (not) Church/Schneider and Stokes, so yes they need 20% because they won’t have a walk up at all this year with the boring additions and the lack of fire and heart they want on the field. Hopefully, some of the plan people will tell Wilpon to shove it. Citi Field will be around a long time fellas. You don’t have to go in 2009. Look at the first modern park, Camden Yards. Packed for a few years. Now its half empty. The Wilpon greed will only last as long as we allow it to. He invested when the place was empty in 2002-3 and as soon as we packed the place, the team talent level stopped mattering to the Wilpons. The only time the Wilpons care is when the park is empty!
Maybe I’ll stop blasting Omar. Its now obvious he has to work with a small market payroll.
How can you look at Clemens with the same skepticism that you at Barry with? You have a guy who admitted giving needles to Clemens several times over the past decade. What do you have on Barry? You think his head got bigger? That’s embarassing for a journalist to write. What if it had been flip flopped? If Barry had taken steroids, and Clemens had admitted to rubbing something on his elbow in front of the whole clubhouse? I doubt it would be the same case…
Sloppy, you’re way too focused on how much these players get paid. While I’m sure you’ll fire right back at me and tell me how wrong I am, Schneider and Church are better than LoDuca and Green. The former are both younger, coming off of better seasons, play better defense, and are LH, which brings a nice balance to the lineup. The latter are older, spent time on the DL last year, and have both turned into one dimensional singles hitters.
If you think the Wilpons are cheap, then that’s your problem. But simply from a common sense perspective, what did you really expect them to do this offseason? There weren’t many moves that needed to be made in the starting lineup, and they’re still working on the #1 starter, which can not be added through free agency.
And FYI, the Mets payroll has been increasing every single year.
Any chance Dodgers are in Santana race is over
The Dodgers will announce the signing of Hiroki Kuroda to a three-year, $35.2 million contract today.
Mets, Yanks, Sox are it. Sox still don’t want to give up Lester and Ellsbury and Yanks don’t want to give up Hughes and Kennedy.
Still have hope Mets can get it done.
Regarding the lack of skepticism on Clemens: Wasn’t it just a few weeks ago there was an outcry about the “Rush to Judgment” concerning the death of Redskins player Sean Taylor and how too many people who said he was a criminal? Or the Duke lacrosse case? Or 11 years ago with the Olympic security guard Richard Jewett (??)? Or even with this case a wrong NBC report that listed several names such as Johnny Damon and Nomar Garciaparra?
Mets ticket prices going up? Time to get that bigcsreen TV I’ve been thinking about.
20% raise in tickey prices after that miserable showing last year. BOYCOTT the Mets
Oh I’m not coming back at you… just a couple points to your opinions of mine!
1. Your quote about me: “Sloppy, you’re way too focused on how much these players get paid. May answer. I’m not too focused on their salary. I was very happy when they were going to give Milledge RF. He’s exciting, has an upside, has spunk. He doesn’t make much money. The guys you got and like, have no upside, have no spunk are losers who played for losers.
2 Your quote: Schneider and Church are better than LoDuca and Green. The former are both younger, coming off of better seasons, play better defense, and are LH, which brings a nice balance to the lineup.” My response: Its your opinion they are better. Its my opinion that Church is not as good as Milledge will be when he gets the opportunity to play every day in 2008, and Schneider is a bum,, not as good as Castro. He did not handle his pitching staff as well as a not ready for the bigs Flores did as demonstrated by the fact that the Nats ERA was almost a run higher with Schneider out there, and while in the past he was good at throwing guys out at 2nd he has slipped for 3 years in a row. So I find your facts to be bad opinions as you do mine.
3. Your quote @ the Wilpons: “If you think the Wilpons are cheap, then that’s your problem. But simply from a common sense perspective, what did you really expect them to do this offseason? There weren’t many moves that needed to be made in the starting lineup, and they’re still working on the #1 starter, which can not be added through free agency.”
My answer: They didn’t have to spend money on FAs. I’d hgave been fine if they said we’re going young. Pelf/Humber/Mulvey will fight for the rotation. Milz is in right, Gomez in left next year thats why we kept the golden oldie in left. We’re moving Fmart to first to replace Delgado in a year or so. Gotay deserves a chance. He got it. I’d have been fine. They could have made trades as many teams have done already for real talent, not below average guys.. Since you think Church and Schneider fills the lineup then my answer is so do guys from Brooklyn. They upgraded nowhere. They could have used creativity to fill positions, they could have overpaid to get one of the CFers to play right, or left and get rid of the cripple in left. They could have had Omar trade Milz when his value was high, not after the Omar policy of screwing with kids ruined his value. They could have paid a few bucks and kept Estrada for another team desperate for a trade or for insurance. They could have signed pretty good 2-3 guys last winter but let Omar play footsie with Boras/Zito until all options were signed, they could have paid draftees so the farm would have been better instead of kissing Selig’s you know what to keep bonuses down and act like the Royals. They could have told the fans they were as sorry as we are about 2007, and therefore wouldn’t raise prices by 20%. They say they are the lowest professional sport team to play in NY. The only comparison is the Yanks and unlike the Wilpons, the Steinbrenners’ go after the best and go after the flag every year. We don’t like them but I wish our owners had a desire to win at all cost. They could have followed the Angel lead and lowered beer prices. They could have followed the Dodger lead and have an area where the ticket includes all you can eat for the day/night. But no the Wilpons said you the fans will do anything and pay anything to say goodbye to Shea and hello to Citi so screw you!
20% is a very big increase for what has happened in the last several months..
I guess I did go off on you. Its the NFL’s fault. The Giants should be playing a day game. And its Mother Nature’s fault. I’m iced in. We had quote an ice storm here in middle of PA
Keith Its a always a pleasure to disagree with you. Maybe will meet up in a park someday.
Season Tickets are going up an average of 20%. They also said the higher priced tickets are going up more. When I get my invoice I will let you know how much my increase is.
Actually since they started this Gold, Silver BS. Which is total BS, you need an accountant or a math degree to figure out what they are really doing.
Dan: The report was a 20 month endeavor. That’s not a rush to judgment like the others you reference.
sloppy: You are one crazy anti front office dude.
keith: I just don’t know what anyone sees in these add ons Minaya has made for the last 2 winters.
scoopcoop: Don’t be so sure its a 3 team race for Johan. I never saw the D-Backs mentioned as a Haren target, or the Angels as the team to sign Hunter.
¨Seaver
December 14th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
How are PEDs any different than Lasik eye surgery? Or Tommy John surgery? I mean legality aside. Don’t they all enhance your performance? ¨
You must be kidding, right? Legality aside???
TJ surgery is a repair of an injury. Lasik is a legal surgical procedure available to eveyone. Neither is harmful to your long-term health. Steroid and HGH can cause sterility, a wide range of serious side effects, and early death (see Lyle Alzado). They´re also illegal, and thus an immoral advantage over those who choose to compete fairly and honestly.
¨Seaver
December 14th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
How are PEDs any different than Lasik eye surgery? Or Tommy John surgery? I mean legality aside. Don’t they all enhance your performance? ¨
You must be kidding, right Seaver? Legality aside???
TJ surgery is a repair of an injury. Lasik is a legal surgical procedure available to eveyone. Neither is harmful to your long-term health. Steroid and HGH can cause sterility, a wide range of serious side effects, and early death (see Lyle Alzado). They´re also illegal, and thus an immoral advantage over those who choose to compete fairly and honestly.
Oops! Sorry about the double post.
Sloppy, it’s funny, if I had been posting on here earlier than you would have found we actually have similar points of view. Like you, I wanted Milledge in RF (out of ST last year), Gotay at 2B (after he played well last year), and then keep Alou in LF until Gomez was ready, and also move FMart to 1B. I also like Pelfrey, Humber, and Mulvey and would rather see those guys get a chance than sign Castillo for 4 years or one of the CFers for RF.
However, what is different about us is patience. While I personally liked Milledge and thought he would eventually become a productive player (and as you note, I loved his energy… was it a coincidence that when he and Gotay were inserted into the lineup this team started playing better?) However, when you look at Church’s stats from last year, they show some promise. Sure, he probably won’t turn into Grady Sizemore, and with a gun to my head I would probably tell you Milledge has the better career. But like I said before, Church will give you what Rowand or Hunter would have given you this year. Those two were both coming off career years and have seen their fair share of the DL.
As for Church and Schneider being better in my opinion… it’s not opinion. Both were better than Green and LoDuca last season, which is who they’re replacing. Church is not replacing Milledge, he’s replacing Green.
Schneider is where we disagree big time though. I never liked LoDuca. IMO, he’s a big phony, and not because of his inclusion on the Report. All his carrying on and “grittiness” was one big act. He was also ridiculously overrated as a hitter. He has a career 99 OPS+, which isn’t exactly overwhelming. He’s a glorified singles hitter and everyone was enchanted by his ‘06 season. He’s terrible behind the plate, has no arm, and is a coward when it comes to blocking the plate. How many times did you see throws from RF bounce off his chest? He stinks. Schneider, while not a great hitter, did have a higher OBP than Mr. I Never Strike Out. And regardless of your thoughts on his defensive skills, he is miles better than LoDuca. Castro probably is better than both, but he has an arthritic back and you can’t go into the season with him as your starter.
Ok, sorry for the venom, let me take it down a notch, but LoDuca and the love affair with him, drives me crazy.
I will agree with the lack of creativity. Last season I thought their target should have been Meche. With no Aces available, you need to try and find the next Chris Carpenter. A dude (most likely an AL pitcher) with good stuff, but for whatever reason (injuries, the AL, whatever) couldn’t put it together. Meche would have been a great addition. I wasn’t as sold on Lily, but this past season showed us he would have been a great signing as well.
We also disagree on Alou. He’s worth the gamble because for a guy keeping a spot warm for FMart, he gives you incredible production for the price. If he can stay on the field (I know, a big if) he will hit. The guy could roll out of bed in February and hit.
I also don’t get wrapped up in this ticket raising business. Whatever, it’s a business. Simple supply and demand. I watch baseball because I love the game, I try not to worry about this peripheral stuff.
I think the team’s main problem is that they went for it the past two seasons and are now caught in between. This is likely the last hurrah for Delgado, Pedro, Wagner, and Alou. The kids seem to still be a year or two away. It feels like they’re in limbo. The reason why I am reserving judgment on the Milledge deal is because I want to see how Church and Schneider work out. They could solidify this lineup and play important roles on a contender. But they could also bomb terribly, and then I’ll join everyone else in trashing the trade. When I “defend” this trade it doesn’t mean I endorse it or like it, but I’m just trying to look at it from all angles and understand it. In a way I do, but again, I wanted to see Milledge flourish in NY because he is a NYC kind of player. But then again, we still have Gomez and FMart coming through the pipeline, and who knows, maybe Church for Milledge becomes our O’Neil for Kelly (a guy can dream).
Anyway, it’s December, my Packers are 11-2, Favre just broke Marino’s yardage record, my bday is tomorrow, and my last final is Tuesday. Other than some uncertainty with the Mets, life is good.
As always, love the debate, even if it gets heated at times.
I saw the Packer game. As for Green/Church, Church had a bit more power, Green stole more baes and had a higher avg. But Green was gone and the job was Milledge’s supposedly and Church replaced him in my mind. Chirch might match Rowand offensively because of the Philthy bandbox, but he won’t match Rowand’s D and Hunter, is an excellent player.
I don’t see hw anyone can say Scneider had a better year than LoDuca even tho LoDuca was bad, Schneider hit in the 230s, had 6 HRs or something, had the worse throwing year of is career and did a lousy job wth his pithers.
But since we agree on everything else about the kids then I’m glad your Packers won but not glad about Marino being out of the books because he was a Pittsburgh kid.
Scott: whatever they are doing let us know if you feel ripped off or not. I know longer blame Omar for the failure to bring in tlaent. I believe he was leashed by the Wilpons.
Omar P: I always was anti-mgt. Even when I was mgt I was anti mgt.
Omar P
Dbacks were rumored to be interested in the 3 guys-Haren, Bedard, Santana.
And the Angels were rumored to want to make a big splash and they did w/Hunter.
There are now only three teams that could pay 20-25MM per yr for 6-7 yrs, especially that Angels and LAD have spent $$ on others.
I don’t see anybody else unless it is some kooky nut owner like a Hicks at TR that would be able to pay those $ except Yanks, Sox, Mets.
I think Seattle is a darkhorse candidate for Johan. They have an attractive CF prospect in Adam Jones and they have money to spend. With Oakland basically bowing out for ‘08 and Texas being terrible, maybe they think they could have a shot at the West or the Wild Card.
A rotation of Johan, King Felix, and Washbourne wouldn’t be too bad.
keith,
I would expect that Seattle is only a candidate if they are just going to make a trade. They won’t sign Santana.
Look at some of the big names they’ve let go over the yrs-Griffey, Johnson, Arod.
keith,
plus Santana is rumored to only want to be traded to an East coast tema b/c he is building a house in Fla to live in US in the off-season. He doesn’t want long plane trips to Seattle or LA, etc.
It’s good to know the heat in the kitchen has cooled..
Does anyone here who is saying steroids arent a big deal actually ever seen anyone on steroids in person? They build mass amounts of strength.
I can’t take this stupid argument that you still need to see and hit the ball. Thats the dumbest thing Ive ever heard. We’re not talking about average joe taking steroids here. These guys are athletes, they already have a great ability to see and hit the ball. Now they have an ability to hit the ball harder and further.
Do you oppose a 14 yr old playing little league with 11 yr olds? Of course you would. Cuase he’s bigger, stronger and faster. Its the same thing with steroids.
This notion that steroids dont do much is stupid. Look at pro wrestlers or body builders. You think any of those guys could lift those amounts of weight naturally? Hell no. Steroids make savages. Leave it for the WWE not baseball.