After watching Kaz Matsui and Heath Bell last night, it is easy to say the Mets blew those trades.
Matsui had his chances, but he was overwhelmed and wasn’t going to make it here. And, Bell didn’t exactly make a case for himself, either.
I cannot blame the Mets for these trades. They just weren’t the right fits for the team. The media and aura surrounding a team in Colorado is so much different from New York. Some players just aren’t cut out for the big spotlight.
No complaints about Kaz Matsui. He had his chances and didn’t do anything beyond his opening day first at bat. But perhaps Heath Bell should have been given more time. He did strike out 105 batters in 107 innings. One of Bill James’ findings is the best indicator of future pitching performance is strikeout ratio. Billy Wagner got roasted for telling “New York” magazine Rick Peterson has little skill in helping pitchers emotional. Perhaps he was on the mark and people can’t handle the truth, especially when an athlete tells it.
I donÃ‚Â´t think that Heath Bell got a legit chance last year. I know he was out of options, so it was either keep him or trade him. But he went a stretch late last season when he was barely used, despite having done decently earlier in the year.
JOHN…is Delgado still carrying around the Jeter Jersey he was photgraphed with yesterday.
Trading Bell was a monumental mistake. They never gave him a job. It was always up and down. And he was better than Mota who was given umpteen chances. I disagree. Trading Bell was just plain stupid.
I have the slogan for the 2008 season:
The 2008 NY Mets…....WE owe you One!
Just a note, they trade these kids because WIllie will never give them a chance, he is a veteran guy, and these kids will never get the experience to be a vet with Willie at teh helm.
Rapolitan, even if someone is not a fit its a bad trade if you don’t get equal value. We got Ben Johnson and Jon Adkins for Heath Bell and Royce Ring (who is also an effective major league relief pitcher). Johnson and Adkins have no value at the major league level. Also I think Bell would have been a good fit.
I like the slogan Doug.
Bell never did it with the Mets and did get plenty of chances. The problem was Omar just dumped valuable arms for nobody. Bell and Ring for Adkins and Johnson and even worse, Lindstrom and Owens for Vargas and some nothing minor leaguer and Bannister for Burgos. I was scratching my head at the time of these deals and I still have no clue why the last two trades were made.
Delgado,like Nomar.Pedro and Beltran,(who actually cried on the phone to Brian Cashman),wanted desparately to sign with the Yankees.
They were made based on numbers. bannister was (conceptually) buried on the depth chart, and Burgos could throw 100, and had closer experience, and is young.
The other guys were older than what they got back, and didn’t project to have a spot in the pen this year. Plus, you run into option issues, Omar elected to get younger, and left handed, pitchers for what he deemed o be guys they weren’t going to be able to use.
I agree that Bell seemed to bring more to the table than the Mets thought, and never really got a legit chance. But, you can’t go back.
Of course, if Omar traded the young guys for 27-29 YO career minor leaugers or AAAA guys, and the young guys did well and the old guys didn’t, he would get roasted for that!
So really what he needs to do is find someone elses Heath bell and snag him for next year (like when he got Maine).
Bell had great peripherals John.
Any stats guy will tell you the he was snakebitten and it was a matter of time before he found success.
I personally think he had his chance and didn’t make it happen here. And may never have.
Who knows, Vargas and Adkins may one day be our Heath Bell.
Get them rollerblades!
Bell and Bannister couldn’t get along with Peterson and led to their trades. Peterson needs to be fired!
Bannister did not perform very well prior to his injury last year. There is little in his stats to suggest he will improve, rather, he may regress. Trading a soft thrower for a strong arm releiver is smart baseball. Who knew Burgos would blow out his elbow?
Peterson does not have the power to make a trade, this is on Omar. That perception about Peterson has been refuted so often, yet people still remember the incorrect/out of context “10 minutes” comment.
This is a trade that should be looked at in a couple of years once Burgos is healthy. If he stinks (or never gets healthy), then Omar will have been wrong. If he excels, and Bannister falters(or even stays the same), then he will have been right. Not all trades work out immediately. Burgos has the potential to be a closer. You trade a 5th starter for a closer every time. Besides, the 5th starters for the Mets won 12 games this year. One less than Bannister.
To Ed: The Mets had tunnel vision on Bell. They had their mind made up on him, so he wasn’t going to get a chance here. It was only a matter of time that he’d be traded.-JD
I agree with Ed, jury still out on Burgos for Bannister. Matsui was a total bust here, and he missed a lot of time in Colorado since hes been there too. Bell was a bad trade.
Bell was completely mishandled when he was with the Mets. Look at his game log from ‘06….you’ll see that he allowed 15 of his 21 ERs in just three outings. In fact, if you subtract his last appearance of the season—a 12-0 loss to the Braves on 9/26—Bell would have finished with a solid 3.82 ERA (instead of 5.11).
If you’re going to give Minaya (totally deserved) credit for stealing away John Maine and Oliver Perez, you can’t spare him blame with Bell. As for Matsui….who cares? He had a 87 OPS+ this season, which compares unfavorably to Luis Castillo’s hardly inspiring performance (93 OPS+).
Ryan McConnell, you’re awesome! A rare voice of reason in the newspapermen community! You’re this close to a BABIP reference!
Ryan is very accurate and has his facts straight.
Losing Heath Bell was a big blunder and so was Brian bannister for that matter. Omar started reading his own press clippings last December and thought he had the Midas touch. He didn’t, and the Mets paid dearly.
...the 5th starters for the Mets won 12 games this year. One less than Bannister.
Here’s how I calculated the Mets 5th starters:
Jorge Sosa (14 starts): 7-6, 4.59 ERA
Mike Pelfrey (13 starts): 3-8, 5.58 ERA
Brian Lawrence (6 starts): 1-2, 6.83 ERA
Jason Vargas (2 starts): 0-1, 12.19 ERA
Dave Williams (1 start): 0-1, 22.85 ERA
Chan Ho Park (1 start): 0-1, 15.75 ERA
Phil Humber (1 start): 0-0, 7.71 ERA
Total: 38 starts, 201 1/3 IP, 11-19, 6.39 ERA
As a comparison, Bannister went 12-9 with a 3.87 ERA in 27 starts. To give up as many runs as the Mets #5 starters did in 2007, Bannister would have had to surrender 72 runs over his final 36 1/3 frames. And he did it all while playing for a bad Royals team in the hitting-heavy American League.
To be fair, I didn’t mind the Burgos trade when it occurred. I thought Bannister was a fifth/sixth starter and Burgos had potential to be great. But it was dreadful in retrospect.
Ed in Westcheter, I respectfully disagree with you. Not only did Bannister pitch well, but he was a ray of hope at the time and the team counted heavily on him until he got hurt. I believe each of his starts was a quality start and in two games he went 7 and alloed only 1 run, while in his first game he took a no hitter into the 6th. If by not pitching well, you mean not throwing hard, the two have nothing to do with each other. Bannister was being touted as one of our top prospects also at the time. His pin point control makes up for his low MPH heater, and his change-up is among the best in the AL and results in many weak grounders or popups.
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. The trades were made and we are where we are.
Bannister was not projected as high as Pelf and Humber so he got traded.
As for Willie and his liking for vets. There is one rook that he used often this year and that is Smith. If he hates rookies so much why did he use him? You could make the case that there was a reason he went with the vets over the rookies. Some of it is history as in the veteran did it before for him like Valentin. Other cases the rookie just isn’t ready like Milledge.
For all the Milledge lovers at the end of the day he can’t hit a curve. He also lacks certain fundamentals. A veteran by definition has been tested. They may have warts but they are veterans because they made it.
Again I think we do need to get younger. Most likely that will come from within. I would like to get a nice OF but someone listed the FA at the end of this year and there really is not much out there..
We also need an Ace. Is anyone out there? The big Z got his money before he was free..
As other people have said, the jury is still out on the Bannister-Burgos trade. Bannister’s stuff with the Mets was average at best; he was constantly getting in and out of trouble. I have the feeling 2007 will be a career year for him: 77K in 165 IP is not a sustainable foundation for continued success.
With the Lindstrom/Owens trade, I’m not necessarily defending it, but a lot of people praised it at the time. The thinking was (1) Lindstrom & Owens didn’t have the stuff to get out major-league hitters (Lindstrom threw a straight fastball) (2) Vargas & Bostick were young LHP with a lot of talent who’d benefit from working with Rick Peterson. Obviously, the trade didn’t work out, but I still think middle relievers up the minors are a crapshoot.
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