Welcome back to Mets Chat Room.
Here’s hoping you all had a good day. On the news front, Marlon Anderson had his appeal hearing and Orlando Hernandez worked out of the pen last night.
It’s all about the games. If this is a championship caliber team, it will step up. If not, then winter is just around the corner.
Just when will winter come for the Mets? I have a poll up in that regard.
283 Comments
Benny: Oh, I meant to ask. Why would anyone think Willie was not Omar’s first choice? Do you actually know something we don’t know? From everything that happened at that time, it was pretty clear to me that Willie was hand-picked by Omar. Just like Rickey Henderson, the “Card Paying Coach,” and Bernazard, the Fraternizing Assistant, were hand-picked by Omar. The owners are not going to give him full autonomy and then right off the bat, dictate a manager.
jk:
jeff wilpon didn’t point the finger at omar. he said he was disappointed at omar, willie, and the players as a whole. no way omar get fired. this team was a disgrace before he came. you may say they are now, but at least they’re in first or competing for it. the sports illustrated cover-boy isn’t in any trouble. not even a little
all signs point that jeff doesn’t think much of willie. the contract negotiation for his extension was tough. he told willie any manager could have managed that 97 win team. of course, it’s not true. it had mediocre starting pitching (trachsel, duque, glavine, maine, and a bunch of terrible #5’s: lima and company.
that being said willie won’t be fired as he’s due $4.5m over 2 years and wilpon won’t pay it. willie also deserves another year.
but the finger is less likely pointed at omar than willie. at least from jeff.
the pitching is on omar, but this collapse is one everyone from the wilpons to omar to willie to the players. most is on the players.
it’s not over though. let’s go mets.
When does Scott Kazmir become too expensive for Tampa Bay to keep?
iMets: What I meant is that Jeff Wilpon pointed a finger at everyone in the organization, top to bottom, and specifically naming Omar along with others. In other words, no one in the organization was spared criticism in that SI piece. He is on the hot seat as much as Willie is.
We will have to agree to disagree. Because I think if they don’t make the postseason, the SI cover boy will be in trouble. Willie may very well be the first to go, but the bloom will be off the Omar rose and he will be put on notice. A failure to turn things around quickly and I believe he will be fired.
And yes, I am aware of the Madden piece. But those contract negotiations came in the winter before the outcome of Omar’s questionable moves were clear. Now that these moves can be judged better, I’m sure their opinion of Omar has shifted.
At least we agree on one thing—Willie isn’t going anywhere soon.
YOU POST SEASON HAS COME!
YES…I’m so psyched for October ball at Shea!
It’s been a tough tough month but hey we’re here
and bring on the Padres.
We turned it on when our backs were against the wall
and let’s keep it going.
Who knew Maine could throw a complete game shutout this late
in the season; I hope he has some left for the playoffs.
And didnt you just know the Philiies were gonna choke
in the last weekend?
There’s fans must be so pissed.
(open on monday morning)
I don’t get how Omar keeps getting a free pass in everything while Willie gets blame for everything. I listen to wfan, and have to hear BS about how he should have done this or that. Who do you exactly trust in that bullpen right now? We’ve seen Heilman, Feliciano, Wagner, Smith, and the crew ALL blow up. Then there is Mota, I mean apparently this guy stole the steroids Felix Heredia left behind. There is NOTHING in the bullpen especially when Wagner is struggling. Its not like there are other offensive options either. If you don’t like Delgado, who replaces him? or Castillo taken over by Gotay? And where exactly is the dominant starting pitching? Glavine is basically an ace on this team, someone who is pushing it in baseball years. Oliver Perez? There is a reason why the Pirates gave up on him, he’s inconsitant. Granted he’s better than he was for them towards the last years in Pittsburgh, but he’s still up and down. John Maine? He’s not an ace type pitcher, he’s good, but not great. El Duque is good to see when healthy, but so are solar eclipses.
But what I have a problem with is Omar Minaya:
1. He resigns Mota AFTER he tests positive for steroids to a freaking 2 year contract! Great wonderfull move there.
2. Traded Brian Bannister for Burgos, great, he sucked when he was here, and now is injured, while the former Sherholz assistant Moore fleeces the Mets and has a good starting pitcher right now. Masterstroke!
3. Then, decides to trade Heath Bell and Royce Ring, two bullpen pitchers, with Bell dominating for the Padres for Jon Adkins and Ben Johnson. Great, a lot of net gain there. Think we could have used Bell over say Mota?
4. Then we trade Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom for Jason Vargas. I mean, neither Owens or Lindstrom have been lights out, but they are a LOT more usefull than the pair the Mets got back.
I mean, I know Minaya is a good GM but he’s not the great one that some people claim he is. I mean he’s the same guy the decided to not trade Vlad when he could have had the moon instead of draft picks. Then trades away 3 players, for a rental of Bartolo Colon. The three players? Grady Seizmore, Brandon Philiphs, and Cliff Lee. Think the Nationals could use all 3 of them now?
I think as much as Willie gets blamed, Omar needs to be held responsible too.
Jason
Willie didn’t like Heath according to the Heath’s interview.
Omar is not going to force the players on Willie .The players you mentioned didn’t earn Willie’s trust.
Willie has his own peculiar way of treating his players.
He reminds me of Dinkins.This team is going to get it’s Giuliani.He is in japan now.
Jason: If you believe Omar Minaya he made those deals in Montreal (along with trading away Carl Pavano..Chris Russo ripped him for that three years ago) because Bud Selig assured him the Expos would be contracted and he wanted to win a championship now. Why he and Selig ever thought the players union would agree to lose 50 jobs is another matter. But I have heard a number of callers rip him for his bullpen moves, most of which made you scratch your head at the time.
JK: I said I didn’t think Willie was Omar’s first choice, not that he was forced upon him by management. Think of it as a bar at 2:30 am: Your first choice has probably gone by then, but you’re willing to settle for something else.
As for the whole what’s-causing-this-and-who’s-to-blame discussion, all of these things being discussed, including the bad execution, point to the non-physical aspects of the game. To be sure, this collapse hasn’t been about limited talent/physical ability—it’s been about sloppiness, complacency, overall head-up-the-ass baseball.
I don’t see Omar in this equation, outside of the idea that perhaps he should have acquired an extra bullpen arm at the deadline. I don’t see this as a talent problem, as much as a performance one. And, if it’s a performance problem, it’s on the uniformed personnel.
I could write for the next half hour, detailing specific players and how they, to use Delcos’ Yankee phrase, “spit the bit,” but it would all come back to the same source: Who is responsible for getting performance out of the players? If that’s solely the domain of the players themselves, then I have to wonder whether Jeff Wilpon was right when suggesting that anyone could have managed them to 97 wins last year.
In my opinion most of the Performance aspect is on the players, with a small bit on the manager. Basically what we are seeing here is a bunch of players who have never been in a pennant race (because there was no real race last year) getting their first taste of it and not handling it well. That combined with a bullpen implosion and here we are.
It has been a strange season, no? For all that the Mets have been in first place for about 4 months, and even though I have watched/listened to/blogged about around 90% of those, I can’t really at this point look back and think of some ‘great moments’ that you usually have in an amazing season.
I am hoping beyond hope that those great moments will come in the next three days.
If you think performance is only about players, explain Bobby Cox to me.
Have a nice winter MET fans. Your season is done! =)
Kings of NY??? LOL That was funny.
Bobby Cox is a player’s manager. He lets the players play.
Oh, and Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux certainly helped.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Bobby Cox’s teams always seem to have marginal players (Matt Diaz, Buddy Carlyle) playing over their heads and that his teams, despite variances in talent year to year, are always among the best in the league.
Oh—and Glavine last pitched for Cox in 2001; Maddux in 2003.
I’ve been a Mets Fan for 40 years. When I was in my car listening to the WFAN and heard the mets traded Kazmir for a guy who was mediocre pitcher with a history of arm trouble I truly felt that was it being a met fan. I have has enough. I was done being a fan. Than came along Omar and for some reason, I said to myself, I would give this organization one more chance. I really thought Omar did a good job and what made me hang in there as a fan was when Omar stated he was going to build a good farm system leading up to this past off season which in my opinion Omar did a complete 180 and I was scratching my head. He traded bell (pitcher) to the padres for garbage and he traded Bannister (pitcher) to the royals for more garbage. I think again there was rumblings that Peterson didn’t like those pitchers and if that is the case than get this a## out of here because he did the same with Kazmir. The bull pen signings definitely made no sense.
I have to admit that I am at the point again of not being a met fan anymore. I am extremely embarrassed to say I am a fan of a team who had in major league history blew a division with a 6 1/2 lead with two weeks left. It’s not just the Mets but I am losing interest in baseball because of the way it is set up, meaning you have the Yankees who basically have a unlimited resource of spending money and can buy anybody they want with a 230 million dollar payroll and than you have everybody else who can only afford to spend between 50-115 million. It’s a total uneven playing field. What this means that it will be the yankees every year shooting for the World series. Growing up following baseball starting from the late 60’s through the 70’s, 80’s, and early 90’s the yankees didn’t do much more than the Mets did but this is how baseball is now and I’ve had it with baseball. Who cares to see the same team every year having a chance to win a world series. I guareenteed you not baseball fans but of course only Yankee fans is why i hate there fans
because it’s nonsense and they got truly spoiled these past 12 years. Since it doesn’t appear the owners have any guts to fight the union for a hard cap it’s only going to get worse so I really don’t care anymore. I used to be a knick fan and I don’t watch basketball or the knicks anymore. It looks like I’, headed that way with baseball.
Well, let it be said, the Mets are nothing – if not inspirational.
Their horrific play has inspired me to write a complete parody of “Meet the Mets.” I call it “Meet the Mess.” Here it goes…ahem…
Meet the Mess
Meet the Mess
Our ballclub is second best
Pissed away a hefty lead
Lost first place
With some incredible speed
Because the bullpen
took a nosedive
No one of the starters
Could give more than five
Inept, suspect
play that makes the Knicks look good
We’ll make the record books this year
Not like we should
Meet the Mess
Meet the Mess
When they’ll win next
Is anyone’s guess
Crucial errors, mental gaffes
Make fans in the Bronx all heartily laugh
Because pitching needs just were not addressed
Over-hyped prospects not well assessed
Omar, Willie, Peterson and Wilpon, too
If we fail to make the dance
It’s All on you
Oh the Nationals and the Phillies
And the Padres and the Cards
Where do they go?
To beat the Mets!
And the pitchers from the scrap heap
Or brought in from off the street…
Where do they go?
To beat the Mets!
‘Cause the fans all stew on the orange and blue
Because our players don’t man up
At the most important time frame
When competition’s tough
So give ‘em all hell!
Give the trigger a tug!
Let ‘em know they’re turnin’ you to drink and drugs!
Come on and meet the Mess
Meet the Mess
Playing down to teams
So talentless
Offense gone without a trace
It’s a joke we’re even still in first place
Because the Mets are really hittin’ that wall
Booting those grounders, losing fly balls
Three more games left
Mercifully, it’ll be done soon
Because the Mets have blown their chance this year
With their late swoon
With their….
Late…
Swooooooooooooooooooooon.
“Inept, suspect…”
Jane Jarvis is spinning in her grave.
Classic, Gil.
Tom G: Don’t let the door hit you on the butt on the way out. The Mets don’t need “fans” like you.
Sunday morning’s headlnes:
METS CLINCH NL EAST
Steve, those words are not your finest moment, or at least that’s how I’d put it given the comment provisions. I can understand TomG’s frustrations perfectly well, especially starting with the reaction to the Kazmir trade, and I honestly think that this season’s finished. But no I don’t think he deserves the kiss off. That doesn’t make you any more of a “fan.” Broaden your perspectives; learn how to speak.
DG: I’m just tired of bandwagon jumpers that’s all. What, if the Mets blow this you’re not going to be a fan anymore? What kinda b.s. is that? Baseball has left you disenchanted? So what? It’s entertainment. So if the Mets would have held on and won by 7 games, that would have been ok? If the Mets pull it out and manage to win the World Series, is it ok to jump back on the bandwagon? I’m just tired and frustrated of people who don’t stand by their team. It’s ok to point out the flaws, I don’t wear “Met colored glasses,” but they are still my team, thick and thin, who I will root for no matter what.
Benny: So why do you think Willie was NOT Omar’s first choice? Is it just a hunch and you really don’t know? IMO, Willie was Omar’s first choice as he had plenty of time to consider and find a manager. He knew he would be GM at the end of the 2004 season. So he wasn’t rushed in any way.
You say that the collapse hasn’t been about talent/physical ability but I disagree. To some extent I believe it is. I think it is part mental—the inability to deal with pressure—and part lack of talent and fatigue. This inability to deal with pressures points to makeup of individuals and not the manager. There are many players who are clutch and can deal with the heat of a pennant race. Apparently many Mets can’t. Last year was different. There was no pressure on these players. They not only had a big lead, but weaker Braves and Phillies teams that weren’t exerting any pressure. It was easy street. With the closer standings and stronger opponents this year, this team has just folded. Not everyone. But a lot of them. And that isn’t on Willie. That’s on the players themselves. Willie can’t change their character. You think Torre made Jeter who he is? Not a chance.
If you don’t see Omar in the equation I suggest you have blinders on. The media is finally starting to call him out for a real bad winter of moves that have haunted the Mets this year. Dan Graziano lists Omar as the #1 scapegoat for the collapse. Here are his 5 culprits:
**#1 Omar
#2 Delgado
#3 Mota
#4 Reyes
#5 Willie**
In relation to the second half play, I would have to agree with Graziano. I would post the entire link but I notice some posts don’t get through with long links. But the article is called “Postseason roster relief…” and you can search for it at http://www.nj.com.
Hardly anyone is giving Omar a free pass on this anymore. Most notably, not the Wilpons. If you want to, that’s your choice.
I do think Wilpon was right—almost anyone could have managed them to 97 wins last year. Because the manager’s impact on a team’s winning is more limited than you think. But by the same token, Willie’s impact on his team’s swoon this year is also limited. You can’t have it both ways. I’m not trying to. But it seems you are.
Regarding JR’s post, it is agreement with my position. It’s the players that matter most, not the manager. And what about Bobby Cox do you need explained to you? The Braves seem to have more grinders and gamers on their team. Their team personality is different. And that’s a reflection of the players Schuerholz has gotten. The players he has obtained or raised on the farm are the reasons the Braves teams have always done so well.
By the way, do you know if you go to a Braves blog like this half the fans want Cox fired?
MET’S WILL GO ALL THE WAY!!!! LOL That’s sure sounds funny.
Hillary, it seems much like any debate, you have very little to add. ;-)
Hillary: Go do some fund raising. You sure need to. Or bake some cookies. I wouldn’t crow seeing how the Angels annihilate the Yankees every year. In the meantime, LETS GO METS!
Benny – what makes you think the Mets don’t control their own desitny anymore? If they win all of the next possible four games, they’re in the playoffs. Get your facts straight before you complain.
“Nobody will remember the losses when we’re sipping champagne” lol Sure they will! See at the polls.
See you at the polls Obama you fine black man!
Better make hay while the sun shines Hillary because you’re not going to be a factor at the polls for long.
Now go bake some of those tasty cookies of yours so you won’t be crying when the Angels walk all over your team again!
KINGS OF NY. LOL LOL LOL LOL
That’s right li’l lady. The Yankees are on their last legs as a good team and will be dispatched in short order during the playoffs. No ring for A-Rod. Hahaha. He’ll never wear one, LOL!
This is just a temporary lull for the Mets. They are the true kinds of NY.
LETS GO METS!
Hey DG,
Thanks for understanding what i meant and how I feel for good reason and for having my back. If you noticed I didn’t even respond to Steve because I don’t stoop to that kind of level.
Go mets!!!!! =) They made history!!!! Weeeeee!!!!
Hope you enjoyed the season Steve and Obama!