 
Welcome back to Mets Chat Room.
The front office gave Willie Randolph a vote of confidence. Too bad nobody is doing the same for the bullpen. … Orlando Hernandez might get in a game in relief, but likely won’t make a start before the end of the season. … Marlon Anderson had his appeal heard. Maybe the Milton Bradley case can work in his favor.
Big game and it’s Phil Humber. I’ll bet we’ll get more than a word or two on that. Looking forward to talking with you throughout the night.
338 Comments
I was out at Shea last night and I have to say I have NEVER in all my years of watching baseball seen a worse bullpen than what passes for one on the Mets.
As soon as Humber was lifted, everyone around me in the stands knew it was over.
Joe Smith was brutal, Pedro Feliciano was brutal and Billy Wagner was a disgrace. What are any other options? There are none, because Guillermo Mota and Jorge Sosa are worse. Aaron Heilman’s pitching is schizophrenic at best and Aaron Sele throws batting practice.
What does it say when Scott Schoeneweis is the team’s most effective reliever?
A non-existent bullpen and an offense that for three innings down by one run can only manage two scratch infield signles, plus starters who can’t go five innings and a manager who makes questionable decisions = no playoff appearance.
I don’t mean to call you out, iMets, but surely you can’t still be retaining your optimism at this point.
If you are, then please process my passport to get a visa stamped for immediate emigration to the Republic of Myopia.
The backs are against the wall.
Win four against bad teams or go home.
Arizona Diamondbacks have the best record in the NL and could only win 92 games at most.
What a year, what a year, what a horrible horrible bullpen.
funny to see Met fans complaining about loud mouth Yankee fans when all I heard at the beginning of the season were cocky Met fans bad mouthing the Yanks at every opportunity presented. you reap what you sow. consider this payback for all the crap you talked at the beginning of the season.
xryanx
you must be either 15 years old or a die hard yankee fan
go spend another 20 mill on a pinch hitter (giambi)
another 20 mil on a 5th man in the rotation (mussina)
and another 15 mil on a guy who plays every other day (damon)
only the yanks can do that.
well since i cannot …
“use the site to post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar,...profane or indecent information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions constituting or encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law”...
i guess i really have nothing to say about this team.
Ray Sadecki
September 26th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
“I am so glad I dont have to live in New York anymore and listen to those loudmouth yankee fans. For those of you there, my heart goes out to you.”
Ray, I couldn’t have said it better.
I wonder if anyone on the Mets got any sleep last night.
I know I did not.
Scott from Pelham:
The problem is that these probably slept like babies – except for Paul LoDuca and Luis Castillo. They’re the only guys acting as if they give a crap.
Ok its a new day the mets are in 1st place and a 4 game winning streak starts TODAY!!!! Lets Go Mets!!!!
Hey Ron Hall, Tell your Daughter Thank you….
and yes, I like the pink one…..
4 games left, against 2 of the worst teams in the league. Whatever margin for error is gone, so this is it.
I still can’t beleive they are in first place seems like a typo.
But, they have the aces (or for them, what passes for that) of the staff coming up. As long as Pedro, Ollie and Maine all pitch their game of the season, the Mets can still pull this out.
7 innings per start + all the offense they can pile on = hopefully taking the BP out of th eequation!
Plus Smoltz winning tonight would be a big help…
Wonder if this cold possibly come down to Glavine in a must win on SUnday? That is a scary thought… but at least I will be there!
Just hope the Nats help out a little. I don’t think they take more than 1 game, and probably not even that, but who knows. 2 wins would be a miracle.
If Pedro and SMoltz win tonight, they might just hang on.
Or the Mets prove they are scitzo, and run the table and take care of business, and all will be forgotten.
It’s amazing people still think the mets will win there division. Lets analyze the situation. The Mets starting pitching can barely make it to the fifth inning for at least a month now. The Bull pen is dead, there is no bull pen. The mets bll pen couldn’t get out a little league team. Add all that up and you have a dead team who will not win another game. I actually hate this team. Omar please blow this team out and rebuild. The only players I would keep is wright, Reyes and Beltran.
I still believe the Mets will win the NL East because 1) they are still in first and 2) Charlie Manuel is not a genius. You are never as bad as you look when you are losing. But I also felt the same way in the last 5 days of 1998.
well Dan, I’ll give you credit for being positive but where you get this idea that you think the mets will win is beyond comprehension. I just look at the facts and formula. Starting pitching 5 innings at best + bull pen another lost. This team probably will not win again in 2007.
Today is the day that the Mets begin their final descent by dropping the next 4 games—- but the Phils do the same under like-minded management. Results, Mets win the ‘07 East Division by 1 game with a 7-game losing streak and an 87-75 Twins-like record, and then go on to eventually beat the Yankmees in 4 straight because THE METS ARE THE GREATEST … and the Yankees and their homely fans will always suck.
I’ll look at this the only way I can without jumping off a ledge….The Nats had the Mets number this year, the Marlins had the Phillies number this year. A game against a team that had to fly in for one game that i’m sure they don’t want to play, and Pedro on the mound will carry the Mets thru to victory tonight.
Here is my fearless and last prediction of the regular season:
Mets will win tonight, Phills will lose and the Mets will be spraying Champagne Saturday afternoon around 4:15 pm.
Talk to you guys again on Monday to see if I was right!
Take care for now and LETS GO METS!!!
Regards, Steve
I made my prediction weeks ago and still stand by it. We deserve to lose.
I also hope we back into the playoffs and get booted in the first series.
This team has self destructed this month. In large measure it is the managers fault because as Maz said last night you have to find a way to win. Doesn’t matter how. You just have to win. They haven’t done that. That is Willie’s fault.
It is also the player’s fault. They can’t field. They can’t play. They can’t pitch. Stupid errors by players having no business doing what they do. Major league pitchers who cannot protect a 6 run lead.
It is disgraceful.
Dave
My head hurts….
“you must be either 15 years old or a die hard yankee fan
go spend another 20 mill on a pinch hitter (giambi)
another 20 mil on a 5th man in the rotation (mussina)
and another 15 mil on a guy who plays every other day (damon)
only the yanks can do that.”
I probably shouldn’t even do this, but I will anyway…
1) Giambi is only a pinch-hitter because he injured his foot and isn’t healthy. He got his 20 mil a year based on his MVP-level years in Oakland and I believe, even with all his injury years, he’s averaged about thirty homers a year for the Yanks. Even at this staggered end to his career, he’s still about the same player as your old-so-quick first baseman Carlos Delgado.
2) Mike Mussina doesn’t make 20 million dollars (it’s 11) and he’s not the five starter (he’s the four).
3) Damon plays every day (left or DH) and he doesn’t make 15 million a year.
Don’t let facts get in the way of calling someone childish.
The truth is, instead of bashing Yankee fans who are here (and some of them are plan screwheads, no doubt about it—no one should rub the salt in another person’s wounds) you should take the advice of this current Yankee team. Because the Mets are the Yankees a few years ago: old and with a lousy farm system. You carry way too much age with guys like El Duque, Glavine, Pedro, Delgado, etc., and even though you developed two great stars, your farm system stinks. Pelfry is the only thing resembling a pitching prospect. The Yankees were in this exact same situation and it hurt them. So they devoted their money to the farm system and aggressively got younger (they still have age on their team but they’re stripping it away and replacing it with youth). If the Mets don’t follow the same plan, it’s at their own peril. Omar traded away the farm for a win-now team… but that team isn’t winning now. If they don’t start planning for the future, the team could be in for a frustrating future. The Yankees fixed it just in time to prevent a total erosion.
I will add my two cents and not from reading most of the comments on here…
I’m as frustrated as you but a real fan doesn’t degrade the team. Yes, the bullpen has disappointed…but some write like they did it on purpose…or it was a conspiracy.
Ya Gotta Believe.
So, stop whinning (they’ll be time for that after the season is over- whenever that is) and start rooting and supporting.
It’s disappointing to watch the game on TV from Florida and not see a sold out stadium and to hear the fans boo, over and over. IMO…they’re not fans.
Lets Go Mets!
unless the mets don’t make the playoffs, the struggles this week are meaningless.
we already knew that this team had okay starting pitching and a mediocre to bad bullpen. we knew it going into the season. we knew it after the playoffs last year. no pedro. no sanchez. no replacements.
not zito, not meche. not lilly. i would have taken any of those guys over chan ho park, brian lawrence, jason vargas, mike pelfrey, or phil humber making starts as the 5th starter.
the players haven’t done there job. omar should have signed better pitching. willie could have thrown in a squeeze here or there. but the bottom-line is we have to look at the top. the wilpons didn’t want to go that extra mile for a pitcher or even a younger power guy like soriano or lee. instead we get guys at the tail of their career or with injuries who break down on one year deals (alou, el duque, green, castillo).
when the wilpons go that extra mile the mets will run away with the division. period.
did anyone actually think this team was better than last year w/o pedro, sanchez, bradford, oliver? alou over floyd. i’ll give you that for the 90 games.
i read that omar wanted to make more changes in the ofseason, but the executive “suits” thought he was crazy.
it’s not over, by the way
Ok.
So I am not a real fan so says the arbiter of real fandom.
I do not whine. I am stating what I see. They suck and have sucked the whole month when they imploded.
I guess real fans smell roses when in the midst of garbage.
Dave
Jay,
As a die hard met fan I totally agree. Omar built to win now and that boat has sailed. The mets had there chance. Omar and the Mets organization needs to do a better job in drafting players and also need to blow out this team and make it younger and hungrier. I never liked Delgado at all. I could not understand why Omar chased him in the first place. The guy never won anything as a player and than I get to watch him last night smiling at first base after the mets blew the lead. The only players i would keep are Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Maine and Perez and the prospects other than that let the free agents go and trade the rest of the them.
IMETS,
It’s not over!!!
You expecting Pedro to pitch a complete game tonight or for that matter the rest of the mets starting pitching because it doesn’t matter at this point. The bull pen cannot get anybody out. The mets are a first place team playing like a last place team because they have no pitching. When are people going to get it. Pitching wins in baseball and the Mets just don’t have
pitching.
Jay:
1) You’re right. Giambi’s steroid-fueled years earned him his contract. But he’s not about the same player Delgado is. Carlos makes considerably less, but is considerably more productive right now.
2) Mussina is on a 2-year contract for 22.5 million. He has an ERA of nearly 5 and just 11 quality starts all year. That’s terrible for $11.25 million a year. He’s paid like a #2 or #3 but is pitching like a #5.
3) Damon has only played in 138 games and makes $13 million a year, almost as much as Beltran. Yet Damon is roughly 45% less productive than Beltran.
Yes the Mets carry too much age. I think that’s about the only thing you have right in your rant. But the truth is your farm system isn’t so great. Hughes has a 4.80 ERA and Kennedy has just 19 innings pitched in the majors. Joba is the only one so far who can be considered a success.
And no, the Yankees didn’t devote their money to their farm system. Cashman just made a few good moves. The Yankees devoted their money to Pavano and Igawa and Farnsworth and Randy Johnson, and a laughable paid vacation for Roger Clemens. What is that? Over $100 million down the drain?
Only the Yankees with their bloated $230 million payroll can afford to carry so many underperforming contracts and aging former stars and still win. And they only won the wild card. So I give them credit for having the resources to place enormous bandages on their enormous mistakes like Pavano. The Mets don’t have the same resources.
Considering the Mets have roughly 1/2 the payroll of the Yankees but just 4 less wins, I’d say Omar is still ahead of Cashman.
Also, Omar didn’t trade away the farm. He’s never traded any of their best prospects. But don’t let facts get in the way of your rant!
tom g
this has been a 6 month season. the mets have been in 1st for the last 5 of those months. they’re pitching has been bad for the last 3 of those months. there are 4 games left with a 1 game lead.
pitching wins. no kidding. it’s not like the team behind them has good pitching. they face smoltz tonight. then will go on to sweep the nats. 3-1.
can the mets go 3-1 against the cards(1) and marlins(3)? i think so.
they are also tied for the wild card. those team have very tough competition: pads vs brewers; d-backs vs rockies.
i know how bad this team is playing. remember, you watch the mess every night. imagine watching the other nl teams. the mets are still 1 back for best record, lol
Jay: On second thought, Mussina’s paid more like a #1. Compare him to Glavine who makes roughly 60% of what Mussina gets. Glavine has 23 Quality Starts on the year which puts him at #8 in the majors, ahead of any Yankee. It’s understandable that you look at your team through pin-striped glasses, but you should try to be a little more objective.
IMETS,
I understand what your saying and how you are breaking down the last four games but without pitching I don’t care who the mets play there not winning and in the past month the pitching has totally collapse. I don’t know what else to say, this is the way I see it. It really has nothing to do with “You Gotta Believe”, Tug has left us a long time ago.
it’s not about “you gotta believe.” i’m not talking from the heart. i’m talking from the mind. being reasonable. if it was sept 1. bye, bye mets. there are 4 games left.
this team has been the same since may. win. win. lose. win. lose. no big winning or losing streaks. to quote dennis green, “they are who we thought they were.”
get to the playoffs and take your chances. in the nl, at least
IMETS,
It’s a good plan but I just don’t see it happening. Believe me, I hope I’m wrong. I just don’t see the Mets winning 3 out of 4. Maybe the Mets could win one game, that’s all i see. I hope I’m wrong, only time will tell.
IMETS,
Another thing that you said, yea the Mets would win some than lose some, never building a streak but ever since the Philly sweep the mets even when they have won they almost blew the leads. The pitching is shot. The only way i see the Mets winning the next 4 games if the Mets score 10-12 runs a game. That’s asking an awful lot out of your offense. I don’t even have faith in Wagner anymore, he’s been just as bad. Without your closer getting outs, your done.
Tom G,
Mets just took 3 out of 4 against the Marlins in Florida after being smoked by the Nationals in D.C. What makes you think the Mets couldn’t at the very least take 2 of 3 if not sweep this weekend? Keep the faith. Like I said before, Mets will win tonight…Phills will lose and the Mets will be spraying Champagne Saturday afternoon!
JK, I’m not the one who’s delusional about my team. You don’t have to take my word for it. The Yankees’ farm system is rated in the top five in baseball. Just look it up in any minor-league publication like “Baseball America.” They have the best surplus of high-level pitching prospects in all of baseball. That’s not my opinion—it’s the opinion of the people who write about the minor leagues. They Yankees are so loaded with pitching prospects they didn’t have room of their teams for them. What Hughes’ 2007 ERA has to do with the Yankees’ farm system is beyond me. He’s the youngest pitcher in the league right now and has tremendous upside. Joba and Kennedy also look legit. Having three good pitching prospects under the age of 23 is never a bad thing and can’t be used as a negative.
Do you really want to bring Glavine’s name up? He has not been good at all this year. He’s sporting a 4.14 ERA in the NL. Mussina has been disappointing and has had his struggles, but comparing him to Glavine is like letting Mike off the hook. You think Glavine, at 37, could have put up the year Mussina did in ‘06 in the AL? I sure don’t. I think Glavine is an NL pitcher pure and simple. Getting paid 11 million isn’t getting paid like an ace. Zito got paid like an ace. Zambrano got paid like an ace. Pedro got paid like an ace. Hell, even Andy Pettitte’s salary dwarfs Mussina’s. He’s paid as a three; he was a two last year and this year he’s a four. He’s been a disappointment, but not an earth-shattering one.
Saying that Cashman didn’t devote money (not ALL his money, but part of their resources) into the farm system tells me you don’t know a whole lot about the Yankees’ farm system (not a crime, of course). The fact that they upped the scouting and development isn’t an opinion—it’s a verifiable fact you can easily look up online if you so choose.
And Omar DID give up prospects to get Delgado and Do Luca. They may not look like much right now, but Petit and Herdandez were well thought of. And since Brian Lawrence made starts, it wouldn’t be too bad to have Petit around right about now.
Steve,
even the wins against the marlins were shaky. The Mets bull pen gave up leads but the Mets were lucky to win. maybe you forgot the game where the Mets had a 7-4 lead going in to the ninth and lost. if you think the Cardinals are going to come in to shea laying down your crazy. Larussa is going to play his A lineup because the Cards hate the Mets. People keep saying the Phils don’t have pitching either but people don’t realize the Phils starting and bull pen pitching was hurt for most of the year but they are healthy now and a much better team than they were a month ago. People are talking like it’s a given the braves are going to win tonight. The Phils are home and have the best offense in the national league and the Braves have a good offensive team also and the Phils held them to two runs. When was the last time this met team could only give up two runs against anybody never mind the braves. Anybody that thinks this met team will win is just blind faith. I cannot stress this enough but you need pitching to win in baseball. Given up 9 runs a game will not get the job done, this is why I dob’t see the mets winning, period.
Jay: Your previous post was delusional. You talked as if the success of the Yankees this year hinged on their farm system. You didn’t mention the bloated $230 million payroll once. If the Yankees were to spend on the same level as everyone else, then there’s a good chance the team you root for would be fighting the Baltimore Orioles now for third place. It’s delusional to only look at the good part of the Yankees organization and to ignore all your team’s ugly warts. So that’s your Delusion #1.
A MLB ERA has everything to do with the quality of the farm system. It helps determine if a prospect is for real or a product of promise and hype. Same with a MLB OPS. What good is a high-rated farm system if it doesn’t produce?
Here’s your Delusion #2. You said the Mets had a “lousy” farm system. Yet Baseball Prospectus in February rated it the 8th best in the majors. While the Yankees were rated fourth, the Mets hitting prospects were rated higher (11th) than the Yankees (18th). But as I said, IMO it doesn’t matter how good a farm system is rated. The only thing that really matters is whether or not it produces kids that can make significant contributions to the parent club.
Delusion #3. You say Glavine has not been good all year. That is patently false. As I said, he’s 8th in the majors in quality starts, and has more than any Yankee has. He’s been inconsistent at times and a few bad starts have contributed to his high ERA. And why are you asking a question about Glavine regarding 2006? This is 2007. Isn’t that what we are talking about? Both Glavine and Mussina got new contracts after 2006 and prior to the start of this year, so you evaluate both based on those contracts as well as their current performance. I mean, do you want me to go back to Glavine’s Cy Young years????
I said getting paid $11 million is getting paid “more” like an ace (as opposed to a #2 or #3) and it is. Zito is grossly overpaid (like A-Rod is). Santana gets paid less than 2 million more than Mussina. Carpenter gets paid about $3 million less, and Halladay is paid just $1.5 million more. And it is somewhat delusonal to compare Mussina to Zito and Zambrano since both signed their contracts after Mussina did. At the time Mussina signed his contract, it WAS closer to #1 type money than #2 or #3. If you want to use the Yankee scale for payment to starters, then that’s totally letting Mussina off the hook. But the scale I was using was the general one used throughout MLB.
I don’t doubt that Cashman spends money on his farm system. Or that he’s even increased spending there lately. Omar has done the same with the Mets. It was your use of the word “devote” that I think is delusional. You made it sound like the Yankees had turned into the Twins who allocate a more substantial part of their budget to their farm system than clubs like the Yankees. Do you have any figures to back up this claim? Since you’re the one making the claim, it’s up to you to back it up. You might sound more believable if the Yankees hadn’t wasted so much money in recent years on players like Igawa, Pavano and Clemens.
Delusion #4. You said that “Omar traded away the farm.” That implies that he emptied the farm by trading away the Mets best prospects. That he left if basically barren. You are simply wrong. Of course he traded prospects, but they were not the Mets best ones. He kept those. And FYI, Hernandez just had a mediocre season at AA ball, while Petit was banished by Florida to the D-Backs after putting up a 9.57 ERA. In AZ he put up a sparkling 5.22 ERA. Sure, the Mets could have used Petit this year like a hole in the head.
TomG: Last Saturday the Mets allowed the Marlins only 2 runs. I guess we have short memories sometimes when things are going bad.
As a far-away (Netherlands) Toronto Blue Jays fan, I am always looking for new sites with Jays news.
I hope that Halladay and Wells stays healthy all season.