Mets Chat: Are the Mets too soft?
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- June
- 14
Just got in from LA and thought I’d check the posts. Interesting line of thinking has surfaced, and it’s whether the Mets are too soft. Do they let teams push them around? Where’s the mean streak?
It’s an interesting thought. I don’t know how much I buy into the theory a brawl can wake up a team, but I do remember the 86 Mets not getting pushed around. In fact, they did more than their fair share of the pushing. What do you think would have happened to Roger Clemens had he thrown a bat shard at Keith or Dykstra or Ray Knight?
I asked Shawn Green about the Penny situation and said he has a “reputation’’ for that sort of thing. I asked him what’s so wrong about stealing signs and he said nothing, that it’s part of the game.
I’m not sure how the Mets would have reacted had Green been plunked, and that might be part of the problem. These issues always surface when a team loses, but there really isn’t anybody I can think of – outside of Paul Lo Duca – who is really that feisty. Pedro Martinez would throw tight, but he’s not around to do so.
So, weigh in … are the Mets “too soft’’ or “too nice.’’ Do they need to literally kick some real butt before they can kick some butt on the field?
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on Thursday, June 14th, 2007 at 9:04 pm by John Delcos.
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I think they are too nice.
What about Delgado? Does he stand up?
As for the pitchers, except for Pedro they are too nice. He needs to teach Maine/Perez to get an edge. Esp Perez with his heater.
I’ve never played sports at a high level, so I’m no authority, but. based on what I’ve read, David Wright sounds like one of the nicest kids you’d ever meet. Does he have to be a bad-ass type to be successful? He’s been pretty successful in his very short major-league career.
Karim Garcia was bad-ass. What happened to him?
It’s not an issue of being nice or not. Baseball isn’t boxing. It’s about being aggressive and focused and in believing in yourself and your team-
that you’ve got a shot up until the very last out-the very last pitch.True you don’t have to be an a** to be good. but a few years ago piazza got the raw end from clemens and no one on the team backed him up and he himself just took it.
the team could have been fired up but they sat.
sometimes in a competitive arena you need to step up even if you lose. you don’t have to be a thug but you have to have a spine.
two players i can think of who had a nasty streak who were great. nolan ryan, vida blue
Last year, Duaner Sanchez got into Miguel Cabrera’s head by coming up and in. We miss him in that way like we miss Pedro. Sanchez wasn’t afraid like Pedro. I think the pitchers are afraid.
who is karim garcia?...
are you f-ing kidding?
as a veteran team you can understand how they are not as hotheaded and fiery as young blood hungry teams are such as the marlins or the A’s…so what do you expect?
they have to STOP this losing right now!
The Mets aren’t necessarily as soft now as they were in 2000 (that year they were ready to scrap in the NLCS after the Cards’ Dave Veres beaned Jay Payton, but backed down from Roger Clemens the SECOND time he threw a bat shard at Piazza in what to this day I believe was ‘Roid Rage), but may not (yet) be hungry or ornery enough.
Forgive me for indulging in one of my other favorite sports (and not really a violent one) to make a comparison to the current Mets – Australian Rules Football, which I’ve avidly followed since 1999. That year the Essendon Bombers lost a semifinal game to a clearly inferior opponent (much like the way the Mets lost to the Cardinals in the 2006 NLCS.). In 2000, when I was in Oz, I watched as the Bombers played angry all season. It was on. They took their elimination personally. To a man, they had fire in their eyes, walked with a sense of purpose and if any opponent dared threaten their march to the finals, they paid.
The end result? The Bombers dominated the league with a 21-1 record and won the premeiership going away.
At the start of this baseball season, it seemed like the Mets had that in St. Louis – as if they had something to prove. They seemed very focused on throwing a wet blanket on the Cardinals’ party and dominated that three game series.
I haven’t sensed that in the Mets in quite some time. The last time I saw the Mets playing angry was in Florida after losing two of three in Atlanta. The result? A three-game frying of the fish.
Sometime during the D-Backs series at home, the Mets lost focus and allowed things to snowball. Maybe the Mets took the Phillies and Dodgers too lightly. Maybe we got overconfident after the first win in Detroit.
Whatever the case, the team needs to say, in its play, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! And the bush league actions of Kuo and Penny DEFINITELY merited responses.
If I were pitching, I’d have plunked Kuo on the backside the next time he came up after doing his Reggie Jakson impression. And while I noticed Paulie talking to Penny when he stepped into the box, I wish he’d have gotten in Penny’s face the way Penny did to our man Shawn.
I’d like to have the 86ers like Darling, Hernandez, Straw, Backman and Lenny D give the current roster a talking-to about having each other’s backs, being aggressive and getting their swagger back.
(Tasan, you haven’t heard of Karim Garcia?!! That’s precisely my point.) Boys, I hear what you’re saying. And I like swagger as much as the next guy. Of course, they should stick up for each other! Actually, I was wondering if something happened in the clubhouse recently-
something that created a rift between the players-or the players and WR. I’m sick of the losing too, but I love my team, and there’s just too much talent there for them to continue losing this way. Unless it’s more than just a cold spell. If the great chemistry we had in the clubhouse is gone though, I wouldn’t be surprised if we dropped completely out of sight. I wonder if Mr. Delcos has noticed anything strange between players or the players and WR.As an aside, I live in Japan, so I think I know something about Japanese baseball. Have you ever watched Ichiro and Hideki Matsui play? Would you agree that they are 2 of the elite players in the major leagues? Do you ever see those guys lose their composure? Almost never. I’m not a big fan of either one to tell the truth—they’re a little too cool for my taste. But you can’t deny the success they’ve had. A big brawl would be exciting to watch, but I don’t think it’s gonna fix what’s ailing this team. I could be wrong, though.
Penny’s confrontation with Green warranted a response. Green has to do something there, whether it be getting into a pushing match or just getting in Penny’s face. There’s a fine line between showing respect to your opponent and looking fearful. And if Penny were respectful to Green, he would have had the catcher mention the sign-relaying allegations in a more subtle way; geez, I have to think a fastball on the numbers would communicate it more subtly than the end-of-the-inning confrontation that actually transpired. Green, and by extension, the Mets, seemed completely emasculated by the incident. This is supposedly an elite, veteran team—and, yet, they were cowering and disengaged in the face of a bully.
It’s a tough line to walk. Yes, I do think this team is a tad soft, especially without Pedro around. You don’t want a team of jerks who overreact and distract from the game, but a little more fire would be nice.
In general though, the game is different now. How many times a year does someone plow through a catcher for instance on a play at the plate. Guys all know each other these days, they don’t want to get hurt….
You don’t have to be tough in a “fighting” way to win. But how about simply more intensity and energy? They’ve looked a little dead the past week or two.
Wright is the perfect example, as Chris pointed out above. He’s not the Dysktra or Strawberry type of tough guy, ready to fight at any moment. But I think he has the requisite intensity and desire to compete at the highest levels. Some of his teammates seem to lack this same intensity that Wright has.
Lo Duca is the fire. believe me .. my money is on him to start the first brawl. did you see how he defended Green when “Bad” penny came up to bat. and Penny looked the other way.
Lo duca has been the one to recall wright’s homer…
so they arent pansies. They are just hurting cause of the guy on 1st. He’s being pampered way too much.
he’s a rally killer lately he needs to sit.
and even the cohen and darling know if someone throws down on lo duca wright will be there in a heartbeat.
They’re definitely soft. Delgado and Beltran are like puppy dogs.
I have been thinking…
They Need “Keith and the Kid” in as coaches.
seriously to teach these guys how to play old school.
Hojo should be at third not 1st.
if they had more Old mets … Tom Terrific etc.. they would teach these guys how to stand up.
i think the mets will be fine its the met fans i worry about . now theyre soft .
Steve C –
“They are just hurting cause of the guy on 1st.”????
That’s the only reason? What about the other Carlos? How come he gets a pass?
And if Delgado sits who plays first?
JR.
they sent Gomez down. ;-]
oh u mean Beltran. yeah ok his bat’s been dry. but his fielding has been better than delgado.
oh i was never a real beltran fan i remember when we got him he almost came to us begrudgingly. i was all for letting him not sign.
as for who can play first… hmmm a lefty?
is easley better?
franco played it better when they had the second stringers playing for 10 games..
I think there is a difference between playing soft and scared and I think to a degree they have been playing a bit scared lately. I think they need a little fire, a little anger in their game. You cant just fake confidence, but you can bring anger into the game and that doesnt mean you have to hit someone or throw at someone. Play with a purpose. Dont be so chatty to the players on the field (on opposing team). Get up on your own players. Give a little more rah rah perhaps. Stay in the game etc. But play with a chip – they need that right as they look like they “really hope they win tonight” instead of coming out with a take no prisoners attitude.
If you want to call that soft in a way, fine but I think that is the difference between what soft normally is and what I think this time is currently lacking
Thanks for the time and space to chat Metsies (I am a port from Rangers Report blog on this site)
Greg C
Who says you have to be ‘macho man’ to play sports? Think you will find that the athletes who prepare, play by the rules – and know them – and treat their teammates with respect will stand out and do well.
Greg,
if you ask Keith and ron darling. hitting a player is part of the game. just like taking him out if he blocks the plate.
and they all agree what that Dodger pitcher did after the homerun should have gotten him thrown high and tight.
John – any word on Dave Williams? Is he close to a return?
He could replace Sele.
As for soft or not, I tend to agree with TLC. Early last year Met pitchers were going inside a lot, especially early in the year. This year, not so much. Ollie shuold pitch inside, he has the heat for it.
I’m not a big fan of brawls, but I would like to see Ollie fire the boys up with some close heat to Damon right off the bat. Send a message.
And I want Jose to drag one his first time up.
And if Roger does anything, I want Jeter to pay.
Steve, they sent Gomez down? Who did they callup to take his place?
Ledee
green is back. and actually looking better for it.
Steve, I’m pretty sure they sent Newhan and Johnson down to make room for Ledee and Green. So Gomez is still with the team. I think Willie wants at least one really good corner outfielder on the team since Endy is down. So Gomez may stick for awhile.
Gail you are correct. I’m not sure what Steve C was getting at there. But then again he seems to think that Julio Franco is a better option at 1st than Carlos Delgado.
i knew newhan went down. when i didnt see gomez i figured he went down too as they were discussing. him being a rookie and all. ok so i was wrong.
jr- at least Franco hits and catches the ball.
ok just check mets.com. sue me. i made a slight assumptiomn and was made an ass for it. man enough to admit it. so now be a fan and admit when a player needs to sit.
~chris in japan
dude i know who karim garcia is…the point is do you know who said “who is karim garcia?”...
I think the Mets are too nice. I often think of David Wright and Jose Reyes as nice kids. Sometimes I feel the same about Beltran. Delgado is a bigger man but he comes across on the mild side also. We need an enforcer. Edgar Renteria got drilled last week. On his attempt to steal second base, he planted his elbow on the second basemans jaw knocking him for a loop. We need some of that. It’s too bad we play at the stadium tonight. I’d love to see the rocket get nailed just for being there.
Jim
Steve C
I agree and there are instances where action is required no doubt but I am speaking to the team as a whole and the overall big picture – that even in the success of last year seemed lacking (especially compared to those Keith/Darling teams). There are times when you have to do those things and I would back em up every time but I dont think that is bigger issue IMHO but I think we are in agreement on the need to take action when they should point.
agreed action when necessary.
so how do you feel. should delgado sit?
Delgado should not sit. He should hit lower in the order (7th, or dare I say 8th?).
He should DH tomorrow at the least (day game after a night game).
Sitting him will do nothing, especially when the alternatives are not much better.
Steve, should Reyes sit because he didn’t make a catch the other night on PLD’s throw? Should Wright sit when he makes an error?
I agree Delgado has slumped at the plate, but you brought fielding into the equation. All players make errors.
Ed have you been watching all the games? everyone’s slump is over.
Delgado has yet to break out.
As to fighting, this is a veteran team, for starters, and also not a team made up of particularly tough guys – or even big guys. Delgado is somewhat imposing, and LoDuca (who stands about 5’8) is feisty, but beyond that, no one. You think that Franco, Glavine, Green, Easley, Reyes, Beltran et al want a piece of somebody?
So, unlike the ‘86 squad, I don’t think that this is a squad that’s looking to brawl.
At the beginning of the season, I made the point that the ‘86 Mets came into opposing parks with the attitude that they were going to kick your ass on the field, beat the crap out of you if you resisted, and leave the stadium with your girlfriends to go out partying.
The ‘06 Mets came in with the attitude of – we’re more skilled than you are, and we’re having waaay more fun than you… don’t you wish you were on our side?
Perhaps a brawl brings the intensity back – and it would certainly provide a release for the fans who are sick of watching the team lose and lose soft – but perhaps also they get their butts kicked, and end up with both injuries and suspensions.
More likely, the team would benefit more from a group outing on an off day… renting out a bowling alley or something, and getting back to having fun together (which seems to be missing a little right now.) If I were less charitable, I would have suggested shuffleboard, but I won’t go there.
‘86 mets were effin party animals. I would hear stories from my friendss in queens and long island. about Keith having to help carry fellow teammates home..
cause lets face it Keith was party god on the team.
and tough. could you imagine someone getting in Carter’s face? as nice a guy as he was/is.. i dont think getting him angry would be good.
but i dont know ..l i think loduca/wright/franco can brawl.
look at franco’s pipes. dude he’s bigger than half the team.
do u honestly wanna get hit by that?
for a 50 year old guy. he’s in damned good shape.
Steve C –
Beltran’s slump isn’t over.
PLD is cooling down.
Green is just back from the DL, but looks good.
Wright is the only consistent guy right now.
I’m not saying Delgado has busted out. I just am not in the camp of sitting a guy when he slumps just to see if it will get him going.
You brought Delgado’s fielding into play (no pun intended). When Wright was struggling and made a couple of errors, do you think he should have been benched?
Steve C – I don’t care how good Franco looks, he can’t get around on a good fastball anymore. The only thing he is good for is PH, and even that at times is tough since he can’t hit a good fastball unless it is a mistake (see Johnson, Randy)
As for a brawl, it isn’t necessary, though a look of fire might help. A few close pitches, a little swagger after a HR. Something subtle.
Wright – actually yeah maybe sitting him would have helped.
luckily he broke out before that had to happen. i dont think writes avg ever dipped as low as delgado. the only othe rmet to have a worse Avg. was ray ordonez.
but he was an effin GLOVE. but no bat.. :-(
So if sitting isnt an option what do u do to light the spark?
If the Mets are “soft” then the whole league is soft as well. The Mets have more antics in the dugout after HR’s than Ringling Bros and so far no one has retaliated. In fact the Mets fall under the “let sleeping dogs lie” banner. I do agree that if they were so upset over Kuo and Penny then something should have been done other wise shut up!